Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[JSF-1]

Yes but I think its also undeniable that access to the Subway helps make an area more walkable. The more entry points to the Subway and neighborhood the more walkable the area becomes. We can see this on Yonge Street, where south of Eglinton the street is pretty much a solid line of development stright down to Union station. However north of Eglinton development plummets until you get to Sheppard. Believe me when I say that area north of Eglinton is not walkable in the slightest. If the goal is to make an area more accessible and walkable (i.e. a major urban center) then more stations are necessary.

 

[Rainforest]

Yes but I think its also undeniable that access to the Subway helps make an area more walkable. The more entry points to the Subway and neighborhood the more walkable the area becomes. We can see this on Yonge Street, where south of Eglinton the street is pretty much a solid line of development stright down to Union station. However north of Eglinton development plummets until you get to Sheppard. Believe me when I say that area north of Eglinton is not walkable in the slightest. If the goal is to make an area more accessible and walkable (i.e. a major urban center) then more stations are necessary.

I know; there is lots of stuff on Yonge up to a few blocks north of Eglinton, then it gets relatively suburban and extends like that all the way to the 401 crossing.

I don't deny at all the fact that closely located subway stations make an area much more walkable. I have an issue with the ratio of people who benefit from better walkability vs people who benefit from faster travel.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Yes but I think its also undeniable that access to the Subway helps make an area more walkable. The more entry points to the Subway and neighborhood the more walkable the area becomes. We can see this on Yonge Street, where south of Eglinton the street is pretty much a solid line of development stright down to Union station. However north of Eglinton development plummets until you get to Sheppard. Believe me when I say that area north of Eglinton is not walkable in the slightest. If the goal is to make an area more accessible and walkable (i.e. a major urban center) then more stations are necessary.

From north of Eglinton to Yonge Blvd development is low just like at Rosedale & Summerhill area because those areas are dominated by relatively smaller lots making it more expensive & logistically tougher (more seller to convince) to assemble large lots for development.

Subway doesn't always make the area more walkable,.... look at Spadina subway line at Glencarin, Lawrence West, YorkDale & Wilson Station,.... what kind of idiot puts a subway line in the middle of a freeway???? Oh, City of Toronto,.... yeah, let's build high pedestrian-transit hub in the middle of the Allen Expressway!

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Found this video on youtube. It puts into perspective how North York Centre was built, but it doesn't answer the question of why Sheppard hasn't developed. Thoughts?

First of all, that video looks at it from an outsider's perspective "looking at just the map",... it doesn't realize there's a North York Centre Secondary Plan with service roads of Beecroft & Doris as the boundary between high-density development & protecting existing single-residential houses.

Now just like the video,... let's look at the map! Even before all the development,... As you can see, a road-grid system dominated by east-west side streets,... meaning majority of folks leave their house and walk east-west on their east-west streets towards Yonge Street,... where they'll go north-south to subway. Yonge Street get foot-traffic,... so that's where coffee, food, retailers set up shop and succeed! Thus, Yonge Street becomes lively commercial strip,... On most parts of Sheppard, good luck finding someone walking on Sheppard!

Anyways, Yonge Corridor VS Sheppard Corridor,.... when Yonge Subway was extended to Sheppard & Finch Stations in 1974, City of North York was already had a solid plan to build a Downtown along Yonge St corridor (bonded by service roads of Beecroft & Doris) from 401 to Finch Hydro Corridor. Office tower only on Yonge St, residential tower off Yonge frontage towards Beecroft & Doris,... Yonge-Sheppard Centre with 2 office tower on Yonge, 3 apartment tower off Yonge towards Doris & mall podium was built to this framework & completed in 1976. Mayor Mel Lastman was a true salesman and convinced major corporations (Nestle Canada, Proctor & Gamble, Warner Brothers, Xerox, North American Life Insurance, Federal & Provincial government offices, etc,...) to set up head-offices in Downtown North York,... even built Underground PATH system to compete against downtown Toronto.

Mel Lastman promoted and got Sheppard Subway Line built, but PC Premier Mike Harris got it chopped from Scarborough Town Centre to Don Mills,... by the time the Sheppard STUBway line finally opened in 2001, the City of North York already amalgamated with Toronto & thus, there was Noooo-body to promote North York nor commercial office development along Sheppard! Sheppard STUBway line is really a case where passenger volume never justified a Subway,... only LRT.

Development within these parts of Toronto is constricted by what's allowed in Secondary Plans, North York Centre Secondary Plan area (Yonge corridor) generally allows 100m (30-storey) & 4.5FSI density, whereas Sheppard Avenue Commercial Area Secondary Plan is generally 5-6-storey & 1.5FSI density.

Massive re-development doesn't guarantee an area becomes walkable - Maclean-Hunter land got redeveloped to Avondale condos (now 14 condo tower & numerous townhouses east of Yonge between 401 & Avondale),... many of these residents walk to Sheppard Subway Station but sidewalk on east-side of Yonge between Avondale & Glendora is way too narrow (in winter reduced to single file one way only due to snow),.... alternative Bales Ave has no sidewalk on either side - only recently with Flo-Condo it got sidewalk on part of east side but rest is just asphalt.

 

[amnesiajune]

Everyone forgets that until amalgamation, North York had a big tax advantage over the city core. NYCC was built up with offices in the 80s and 90s because you could get downtown-like access (a subway line and major freeway) without the core's milking of office space for property tax revenue. As soon as the city was merged, this advantage was gone.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

High capacity, wide stop spacing is a business case for RER not subways ( at least not in a typical subway application)

 

[Hopkins123]

While it's true that Sheppard, NYC, and Finch are all fairly close to each other (within a km, while as SY-Bayview is 1.6km and Leslie-DM is 1.5km), Bayview, Bessarion, and Leslie are all within 1 km of each other. There's a lot of open space along this corridor and while we are seeing development at concord park place, it's certainly not near to the extent of any other urban centre in the city.

It brings up some good questions, such as whether the addition of Willowdale station would have actually improved the density along much of the corridor, or whether the problems along the line that exist today can be solved with ease. From the looks of it, if we incorporated more line-2 style suburban bus lines, decreased the stop spacing between Bayview & SY, and improved the zoning regulations of the corridor, the line could be extremely well used. It's sad to think that much of these changes will never be the case due to the nature of those living in the general area.

Exactly! The addition of a Willowdale Stn in the midblock does have the potential to further densify the Sheppard corridor. The whole area bound by Glenora to Spring Garden, Dudley to Wilfred could eventually see the single family homes replaced by condos and office buildings.

 

[Streety McCarface]

High capacity, wide stop spacing is a business case for RER not subways ( at least not in a typical subway application)

Not entirely. Most cities' subway systems have the outer edges of said system running with ever increasing stop spacing. Maybe not underground (that's more of a Toronto thing due to weather), but that doesn't mean the lines should stop running when stop spacing exceeds 1 km. Besides, 1-2km between stations isn't even that much. We're not talking about the SSE here, we're talking about North York.

It's worth noting that the 3 stops on the Yonge Line that are in North York Centre: Finch, North York Centre, and Sheppard-Yonge are some of the busiest in the system. Over this 2km stretch of track, 250K enter and exit the stations. This is more than King-Dundas, or Union to Museum.

 

[sixrings]

NYC subway station stopping is much bigger than torontos generally speaking yet i see far less busses and more pedestrians walking to the subways.

 

[Streety McCarface]

NYC subway station stopping is much bigger than torontos generally speaking yet i see far less busses and more pedestrians walking to the subways.

Comparing New York City to Toronto is apples to oranges. Most people in New York generally agree that the bus system there sucks, whereas the TTC actually has an excellent bus system. It incentivizes people to use transit and quite frankly works well. You won't see this in NYC. There's no room to build bus terminals at most stations (except near terminals), the streets are far too crowded in most locations to use transit, and their frequencies just suck. If you don't have that incentive, you're not going to have a reason to use it.

Another thing: the weather. The winters in New York can arguably be harsher than those in Toronto. This means that buses will be less reliable and won't handle as well, making them less convenient than just walking to the subway.

Finally, NYC has dozens of subway lines. For most people, it's not worth it waiting for an inconvenient bus when you're always 1 mile from a line.

 

[sixrings]

people still wait for a bus at marlee when its completely gridlock on eglinton rather than walk one block to the subway... I know some may have reasons but others are simply lazy and our great bus system enables people.

 

[nfitz]

NYC subway station stopping is much bigger than torontos generally speaking yet i see far less busses and more pedestrians walking to the subways.

NYC subway spacing? In Manhattan? My gosh, on some of those old lines, the platforms are longer than the distance between the stations!

I"m hard pressed to think of too many subway NYC stops that are as far apart as Eglinton and Lawrence or St. Clair West and Eglinton West, unless it's underneath a river!

 

[lrt's friend]

From north of Eglinton to Yonge Blvd development is low just like at Rosedale & Summerhill area because those areas are dominated by relatively smaller lots making it more expensive & logistically tougher (more seller to convince) to assemble large lots for development.

Subway doesn't always make the area more walkable,.... look at Spadina subway line at Glencarin, Lawrence West, YorkDale & Wilson Station,.... what kind of idiot puts a subway line in the middle of a freeway???? Oh, City of Toronto,.... yeah, let's build high pedestrian-transit hub in the middle of the Allen Expressway!

The City of Ottawa has a similar plan in Orleans, lucky us

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

The City of Ottawa has a similar plan in Orleans, lucky us

I mean, what could possibly go wrong with placing high-volume pedestrian-transit hub in middle of a highway interchange!
November 21, 2018: "Police investigate death of woman, 57, killed by TTC bus at Lawrence West station",... "Death is 2nd pedestrian fatality at that location near Allen Road in 4 years"
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/pedestrian-death-lawrence-west-police-ttc-1.4914442
Spoke too soon,... here's another one,.... January 16, 2019: Pedestrian dead after being struck by large truck in hit and run, police say
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/male-cyclist-killed-dump-truck-lawrence-allen-1.4980756

 

[JSF-1]

NYC subway spacing? In Manhattan? My gosh, on some of those old lines, the platforms are longer than the distance between the stations!

I"m hard pressed to think of too many subway NYC stops that are as far apart as Eglinton and Lawrence or St. Clair West and Eglinton West, unless it's underneath a river!

To add to this NYC also actually shut down a couple of stations because during the platform lengthening years some stations were close enough together that if both were extended to 10 cars they would be practically butting up against each other. This isn't just an NYC only problem, you see this with many old Subway and Rail systems that have expanded train and platform lengths.