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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Be honest... This is your favourite news source. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc-15N-D8ry-tpHV49CGUiw followed only by OntarioNewsNow.ca.

Enjoy your bus and your subway.
Interesting adhominem attack. Because I think a subway is the best option for scarborough, I am a member of ford nation? I'm not a big fan of the Fords, however I do think that Doug has the best and most reasonable transit plan out of any politician in Ontario. Unfortunately we live in a world where if you agree with a conservative politician on one issue, then that means you're a member of his cult. Very intellectual, very smart.
 
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History

Eglinton West Subway
- NDP started with shovels in ground 1994, Harris Conservatives cancelled 1995.
Spadina York Subway Extension - Liberals started 2006 - Successfully opened 2017.
Sheppard East LRT - Transit City - Miller/Liberals started 2009 with shovels in ground on early works was going to open by 2015, Rob Ford cancelled 2010.
Eglinton LRT - Transit City - Miller/Liberals bought tunnel machines 2010 - Under construction and expected to open in 2022.
Scarborough LRT - Transit City - City went through detailed engineering study and community meetings, detailed station layouts and elevations completed, Liberals committed to fund in full as extension of Crosstown. Rob Ford cancelled.in favour of a subway, then re-approved by Ford with condition of Crosstown not running at grade, then in 2012 Stintz/De Baeremaeker/Ford cancelled for a subway with less stops and $85 million in cancelled contracts.
Scarborough Subway Extension - Despite the decision having been made in 2012 to switch to the subway nothing is under construction. However, detailed engineering studies are complete, environmental studies are done with many revisions, and the RFP is issued but no contracts signed yet. Seems likely it will get built but this is pending contracts being signed.
Finch West LRT - Transit City - Miller almost started, Liberal budget constraints slowed, Rob Ford "cancelled"/delayed, Liberals signed contract in 2018 one month before Doug Ford's Conservatives took office - Under construction and expected to open in 2023.
Downtown Relief Line / Ontario Line
- City/Liberals started as full metro which was underground with detailed engineering study. and community meetings on route assessments with route approved in 2016 and environmental assessment was underway in 2018, project delayed by Ford government with a new route and plan for using a light metro with above ground sections. RFP issued but no contracts signed yet. Seems likely it will get built but this is pending contracts being signed.

Proposed Form

Transit City - Build LRTs in the suburbs, and put them underground in denser areas.
Sheppard Subway - Build heavy metro under suburban streets between North York and SCC next to the 401 despite travel pattern analysis showing east-west travel on transit from SCC was less likely than north-south (i.e. towards downtown).
Scarborough LRT - Build LRT using much of the SRT footprint fully in its own right of way serving new areas such as Centennial College and Malvern.
Scarborough Subway - Build a heavy metro to Scarborough Town Center (later extended to Sheppard) with only 2-3 stops.
Downtown Relief Line - Build a heavy metro out of downtown Toronto to Pape with potential future extension towards Don Mills and Eglinton. Build underground to minimize impact on communities.
Ontario Line - Build a light metro through downtown from the CNE in the west to Don Mills and Eglinton in the east and have above ground portions.

Based on the information it seems like the Liberal / Miller / "Lefty" logic is to build based on expected capacity (i.e. heavy metro downtown), and environment (underground in denser areas, on the surface in the burbs for LRT). The Ford / Conservative / "Right Wing" logic is to build heavy metro in the burbs underground, and light metro into downtown.

Opinion Piece

It seems logical to me that (a) you plan based on needed capacity, (b) you build at grade when there isn't a big benefit of putting it elevated or underground in terms of travel time and the ridership wouldn't justify the cost, (c) you build underground to minimize impacts to existing communities, and (d) you build to handle growth or you build cheap to minimize regrettable spend when you later build for growth.

Transit City - A sensible plan. Building at the surface minimizes regrettable spend if there are future phases to have the LRT duck under main intersections or get fully buried. Seems much like the Brussels pre-metro where tunnels were served with trams/LRT originally with the routes running on the surface in the outskirts, but was converted in many places to full metro as it was needed. If anti-LRT / pro-subway wrenches hadn't been thrown into this plan we would be welcoming many more line openings around now.

Sheppard Subway - Not cost effective. Should be LRT mostly at grade. Now that the subway is built it should probably be reverted to pre-metro and extended to make it more useful. As a Fairview Mall shuttle it doesn't benefit enough people. YRT tried to funnel people into the line at Don Mills from Markham but that experiment failed as it was more convenient to take the bus on the 407 to Finch.

Scarborough LRT - A sensible plan. Serves new areas, scaled appropriately, good connectivity with Eglinton LRT.

Scarborough Subway - A partially sensible plan when ending at Scarborough Centre. Ending at Scarborough would terminate an existing heavy metro at a more natural transfer point to other modes (i.e. terminates the line at an actual destination). The downfall is comparing this option to the areas served by competing LRT plan (which really could/should still be built in the future). Not sensible is extending the line to Sheppard as that doesn't improve connectivity (i.e. routes are going to dump people at Sheppard to get on the line to go one station to Scarborough Center (the destination) where many other routes including the Durham BRT and GO will connect. This is going to lead to needless transfers and one stop trips and spends money that would be better spent elsewhere.

Downtown Relief Line - A sensible plan which puts the greatest carrying capacity into a route that in the future is likely to need it.

Ontario Line - Mostly sensible plan. I share the concern that this plan popped out of thin air but Metrolinx has been working through design and has come up with something mostly sensible. For line routing the plan seems sensible and line completeness is excellent with it serving a much greater area. Could have used the original route to minimize delay and get construction started. Running the line in the GO corridor at grade seems affordable although the routing to get the tunnels aligned to the corridor is more complex and may not actually save much. I don't understand the complaints from Leslieville residents on the line being above ground (i.e. at grade in the corridor) considering there is heavy diesel passenger rail in the corridor which would obviously be far louder. They should ensure running on opposite sides of the corridor taking corridor space doesn't constrain future GO/VIA expansion. Cross platform transfers at West Harbour are a good design feature. They should be choosing the highest capacity metro option since this will be the most utilized route as it makes no sense to build heavy metro in the suburbs while building light metro in the most dense area in the city. Some elevated route segments seem ill advised if the equipment was heavy metro but light metro should lessen the impacts.
 
This article was just posted but: https://stevemunro.ca/2021/02/07/recycling-the-srt/ explains how it doesn’t work with the existing infrastructure in most places. Ive also spent entire looking into the feasibility of this and it just isnt cost efficient enough for the ttc to implement. Aside from width of the guideway and the segment from Lawrence east to Ellesmere, the station roofs seem to be too low for the busses to clear given the roadway will have to be quite a bit higher than the current tracks to match platform levels. It’s possible of course, but would end up being very expensive, and if the ttc isnt willing to spend an extra 200mil or so to refurbish the current rt fleet vs just buying more busses and expanding bus bays, they’re certainly not going to spend what it would cost to turn the rts right of way into a temporary busway
Still missing my point. Steve Munro's original, otherwise quite fine discussion of the possibilities left out guided busways, i.e. using low-tech curbs or high-tech guidance systems. He was correct in saying that the corridor is very narrow north of Lawrence. But in a later comment he addressed the guided busway issue and said that while it might work, he was not in favour of adding another technology. So there is the start of the dimension I said was missing (because it was). The corrider is just barely wide enough.

I am perfectly open to the notion that guided busway systems of both types are scarce, often beset by problems, and most likely a niche idea with few realworld vocations. Fine. I am not arguing one should be built here. I am saying it is a place to go in the discussion. I have no idea how much building a simple curbed guideway in the ROW would cost. Less that tearing it down and building bus lanes on one or more avenues that are going to have construction on them for years from the subway? I don't know. What would the operational savings be from having an express segregated guideway? I don't know. Someone with expertise I dont' have could work it out.
 
While Steve Munro is frequently hostile to what he sees as gadgetbahns, the principal problem with SRT guided busway is, as he points out, the timeframe. Constructing a busway over the easiest segment (Eglinton-Lawrence) allows immediate benefit to the area a few months after the closure of the SRT using existing TTC vehicles, whereas widening alignment, widening tunnel, widening/replacing elevated structure, acquiring and testing vehicles and systems are all things which will eat into a large portion of the interval between SRT closing and subway opening.

There was an interesting idea posited in the comments that the guideway/tunnel could be used in peak flow direction with full vehicles, with emptier counterpeak vehicles joining/leaving the at-grade alignment at Lawrence and proceeding back on street. I guess this would require a ramp of some kind near STC so buses could leave / rejoin the elevated section.
 
History

Eglinton West Subway
- NDP started with shovels in ground 1994, Harris Conservatives cancelled 1995.
Spadina York Subway Extension - Liberals started 2006 - Successfully opened 2017.
Sheppard East LRT - Transit City - Miller/Liberals started 2009 with shovels in ground on early works was going to open by 2015, Rob Ford cancelled 2010.
Eglinton LRT - Transit City - Miller/Liberals bought tunnel machines 2010 - Under construction and expected to open in 2022.
Scarborough LRT - Transit City - City went through detailed engineering study and community meetings, detailed station layouts and elevations completed, Liberals committed to fund in full as extension of Crosstown. Rob Ford cancelled.in favour of a subway, then re-approved by Ford with condition of Crosstown not running at grade, then in 2012 Stintz/De Baeremaeker/Ford cancelled for a subway with less stops and $85 million in cancelled contracts.
Scarborough Subway Extension - Despite the decision having been made in 2012 to switch to the subway nothing is under construction. However, detailed engineering studies are complete, environmental studies are done with many revisions, and the RFP is issued but no contracts signed yet. Seems likely it will get built but this is pending contracts being signed.
Finch West LRT - Transit City - Miller almost started, Liberal budget constraints slowed, Rob Ford "cancelled"/delayed, Liberals signed contract in 2018 one month before Doug Ford's Conservatives took office - Under construction and expected to open in 2023.
Downtown Relief Line / Ontario Line
- City/Liberals started as full metro which was underground with detailed engineering study. and community meetings on route assessments with route approved in 2016 and environmental assessment was underway in 2018, project delayed by Ford government with a new route and plan for using a light metro with above ground sections. RFP issued but no contracts signed yet. Seems likely it will get built but this is pending contracts being signed.

Proposed Form

Transit City - Build LRTs in the suburbs, and put them underground in denser areas.
Sheppard Subway - Build heavy metro under suburban streets between North York and SCC next to the 401 despite travel pattern analysis showing east-west travel on transit from SCC was less likely than north-south (i.e. towards downtown).
Scarborough LRT - Build LRT using much of the SRT footprint fully in its own right of way serving new areas such as Centennial College and Malvern.
Scarborough Subway - Build a heavy metro to Scarborough Town Center (later extended to Sheppard) with only 2-3 stops.
Downtown Relief Line - Build a heavy metro out of downtown Toronto to Pape with potential future extension towards Don Mills and Eglinton. Build underground to minimize impact on communities.
Ontario Line - Build a light metro through downtown from the CNE in the west to Don Mills and Eglinton in the east and have above ground portions.

Based on the information it seems like the Liberal / Miller / "Lefty" logic is to build based on expected capacity (i.e. heavy metro downtown), and environment (underground in denser areas, on the surface in the burbs for LRT). The Ford / Conservative / "Right Wing" logic is to build heavy metro in the burbs underground, and light metro into downtown.

Opinion Piece

It seems logical to me that (a) you plan based on needed capacity, (b) you build at grade when there isn't a big benefit of putting it elevated or underground in terms of travel time and the ridership wouldn't justify the cost, (c) you build underground to minimize impacts to existing communities, and (d) you build to handle growth or you build cheap to minimize regrettable spend when you later build for growth.

Transit City - A sensible plan. Building at the surface minimizes regrettable spend if there are future phases to have the LRT duck under main intersections or get fully buried. Seems much like the Brussels pre-metro where tunnels were served with trams/LRT originally with the routes running on the surface in the outskirts, but was converted in many places to full metro as it was needed. If anti-LRT / pro-subway wrenches hadn't been thrown into this plan we would be welcoming many more line openings around now.

Sheppard Subway - Not cost effective. Should be LRT mostly at grade. Now that the subway is built it should probably be reverted to pre-metro and extended to make it more useful. As a Fairview Mall shuttle it doesn't benefit enough people. YRT tried to funnel people into the line at Don Mills from Markham but that experiment failed as it was more convenient to take the bus on the 407 to Finch.

Scarborough LRT - A sensible plan. Serves new areas, scaled appropriately, good connectivity with Eglinton LRT.

Scarborough Subway - A partially sensible plan when ending at Scarborough Centre. Ending at Scarborough would terminate an existing heavy metro at a more natural transfer point to other modes (i.e. terminates the line at an actual destination). The downfall is comparing this option to the areas served by competing LRT plan (which really could/should still be built in the future). Not sensible is extending the line to Sheppard as that doesn't improve connectivity (i.e. routes are going to dump people at Sheppard to get on the line to go one station to Scarborough Center (the destination) where many other routes including the Durham BRT and GO will connect. This is going to lead to needless transfers and one stop trips and spends money that would be better spent elsewhere.

Downtown Relief Line - A sensible plan which puts the greatest carrying capacity into a route that in the future is likely to need it.

Ontario Line - Mostly sensible plan. I share the concern that this plan popped out of thin air but Metrolinx has been working through design and has come up with something mostly sensible. For line routing the plan seems sensible and line completeness is excellent with it serving a much greater area. Could have used the original route to minimize delay and get construction started. Running the line in the GO corridor at grade seems affordable although the routing to get the tunnels aligned to the corridor is more complex and may not actually save much. I don't understand the complaints from Leslieville residents on the line being above ground (i.e. at grade in the corridor) considering there is heavy diesel passenger rail in the corridor which would obviously be far louder. They should ensure running on opposite sides of the corridor taking corridor space doesn't constrain future GO/VIA expansion. Cross platform transfers at West Harbour are a good design feature. They should be choosing the highest capacity metro option since this will be the most utilized route as it makes no sense to build heavy metro in the suburbs while building light metro in the most dense area in the city. Some elevated route segments seem ill advised if the equipment was heavy metro but light metro should lessen the impacts.
Building LFLRT on Eglinton Ave and Don Mills should not be deemed "sensible" by any measures.

Also, converting a high-floor rapid transit service to a low-floor one, while it has its benefits, is not "sensible" either tbh.
 
The pro LRT people have lost the energy to fight this battle. This thread has become a haven for the pro subway crowd.
 
The pro LRT people have lost the energy to fight this battle. This thread has become a haven for the pro subway crowd.
Get a grip. If you don't like it, create your own Scarborough LRT thread. What's funny is that people complain that "If the Scarborough LRT was built, we wouldn't be in this mess" yet they seem to miss the fact that the TTC already recommended renovating the RT back in 2006.
 
The pro LRT people have lost the energy to fight this battle. This thread has become a haven for the pro subway crowd.
Perhaps if you put energy into rebutting our claims instead of quoting poorly written articles and calling people who like the subway members of "Ford Nation", maybe you wouldn't be losing this battle.
 
Yes. Thank you David Miller for replacing a perfectly reworkable Lim system with a god awful LRT. Thank god for the SSE, short term pain for long term gain.
So the Lim system was fine but LRT along the same route that would provide the same service was just awful, sure
LRT lines that slower than their bus counterparts
Not true at all, even just the surface section, along with much more of the rest of your rant.
 
So the Lim system was fine but LRT along the same route that would provide the same service was just awful, sure

Not true at all, even just the surface section, along with much more of the rest of your rant.

Their methodology is wrong but the end result is sound. There was no reason to replace the LIM with LRT. The TTC plan of refurbishing the existing SRT was a perfectly good plan, the best price, and the shortest amount of construction time.
 
So the Lim system was fine but LRT along the same route that would provide the same service was just awful, sure
A low floor LRT system would be A) Slower because the vehicles are slower, and B) Lower capacity because they're low floor. It would be a downgrade from the RT, and that's still not addressing the biggest concern that you're rebuilding the entire thing from scratch for like 2 billion dollars with barely any improvements to justify that price.
Not true at all, even just the surface section, along with much more of the rest of your rant.
Busses don't have to stop at every stop at every stop, busses can have express services to make travel times faster. The only advantage LRTs have is having dedicated lanes that skip traffic but even then, that bumps the LRT up from being "slower than busses" to "conditionally faster than busses". Off peak LRTs will be way slower.
 
A low floor LRT system would be A) Slower because the vehicles are slower, and B) Lower capacity because they're low floor. It would be a downgrade from the RT, and that's still not addressing the biggest concern that you're rebuilding the entire thing from scratch for like 2 billion dollars with barely any improvements to justify that price.

Busses don't have to stop at every stop at every stop, busses can have express services to make travel times faster. The only advantage LRTs have is having dedicated lanes that skip traffic but even then, that bumps the LRT up from being "slower than busses" to "conditionally faster than busses". Off peak LRTs will be way slower.
Can you provide a link that shows low floor light rail is slower?

From link about the Region of Waterloo's Ion.

The maximum operating speed of Ion light rail vehicles is 50 km/h (31 mph) along city streets and 70 km/h (43 mph) along railway rights of way. However, in areas where there is high pedestrian traffic, the operating speed will be as low as 20–25 km/h (12–16 mph). The 19-kilometre (12 mi) trip from Conestoga Mall to Fairview Park Mall is scheduled take about 46 minutes for an average speed of about 25 km/h (16 mph). As a comparison, the average speed of Toronto's light rail Line 5 Eglinton will be 28 kilometres per hour (17 mph) and the average speed of subway Line 2 Bloor–Danforth is 32 kilometres per hour (20 mph). Note that while Ion operates completely on the surface, Line 5 is half underground, and Line 2 is completely road-separated.

The maximum speed of the Flexity Freedom light rail vehicle is 80 km/h. See link.
 

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