Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

Come on you know after this elephant there won't be a dime left for any Scarborough transit of any sort.

I think it's somewhat unrealistic to expect a $5 billion+ SSE (I think we all know it'll end up costing more than that), an Eglinton East LRT extension and a Sheppard extension.

A Sheppard Line extension with a stop at STC and an LRT extension (or two shorter lines to start) would provide a lot more coverage and handle the ridership in a far more cost effective way.

We have mental issues though, so what do we know? Maybe it's just our meds talking.

 

[Rainforest]

Come on you know after this elephant there won't be a dime left for any Scarborough transit of any sort.

There is no such thing as the final round of transit funding.

However, proponents need to have their case prepared.

 

[Rainforest]

Maybe the meds are talking, or maybe something else .. I can't know for other people. After all, cannabis has been legalized

Regardless of the origin, the idea of extending the Sheppard subway to STC plus extending the Relief subway to Sheppard, and then not building the Danforth extension to STC, is fairly decent in theory. The downtown bound riders would be taking the Sheppard subway and transfer to RL at Fairview, while those heading to North York would be staying on the Sheppard trains.

However, at present we have a studied plan for SSE and a promised funding, versus the above potentially solid plan in the back-of-napkin stage. That boat has sailed long ago.

 

[rbt]

Come on you know after this elephant there won't be a dime left for any Scarborough transit of any sort.

Possibly even additional bus service. The maintenance bills of all these low ridership tunnels (Spadina extension, Sheppard, Crosstown, SSE) will collectively consume ~30% of the TTC operating subsidy provided by the city.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Regardless of the origin, the idea of extending the Sheppard subway to STC plus extending the Relief subway to Sheppard, and then not building the Danforth extension to STC, is fairly decent in theory. The downtown bound riders would be taking the Sheppard subway and transfer to RL at Fairview, while those heading to North York would be staying on the Sheppard trains.

For all the mostly deserved ridicule Schabas gets around here the Scarborough Wye was the only wholly coherent proposal anyone has had for Scarborough since the beginning of the SRT refurb/replacement debacle.

 

[LeanMeanMemeMachine]

For all the mostly deserved ridicule Schabas gets around here the Scarborough Wye was the only wholly coherent proposal anyone has had for Scarborough since the beginning of the SRT refurb/replacement debacle.

It's a shame something like this was never seriously considered since it would address the issues of fixing the SRT, as well as providing rapid transit along Sheppard East (or, at least close to Sheppard East for most of the route, since it would largely run along the 401) as well as rapid transit towards Malvern, for about a fifth of the cost of the SSE, Sheppard Line extension and Eglinton East LRT combined (just guesstimating here, but the three projects will likely wind up costing around $11-12 billion total, as opposed to just over $2 billion for the Scarborough Wye, although I find myself thinking that those estimates were a little low). But any alternate plans are long out the window, at least for the SSE, and there's still plenty of time for an alternate plan to be proposed for the Sheppard corridor, since you never really know what kind of plans they're cooking up at Metrolinx these days, and any shovels in the ground for that project are probably at least a decade away.

It really is a shame that the attitude of transit planning in Toronto these days seems to be strictly subway or LRT (or BRT, if you look further out from the city), with nothing in between. It's ironic that this is the position we're in now, when the entire point of the ICTS technology was to bridge the gap between subway and LRT. At least the technology didn't completely go to waste and now forms most of Vancouver's SkyTrain system.

 

[Rainforest]

For all the mostly deserved ridicule Schabas gets around here the Scarborough Wye was the only wholly coherent proposal anyone has had for Scarborough since the beginning of the SRT refurb/replacement debacle.

Not a bad idea, but the whole plan would probably cost more than SSE (more km of grade separated transit). Thus, harder to fund.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Will they keep the RT station boxes as museum pieces and places to film things.

 

[LeanMeanMemeMachine]

Will they keep the RT station boxes as museum pieces and places to film things.

Quite possibly. I've also heard some people throw around the idea of converting the elevated guideway into a linear park, which I could definitely see happening, especially to provide all of the people working and living in the area some green space (correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be much around there).

 

[robmausser]

Not a bad idea, but the whole plan would probably cost more than SSE (more km of grade separated transit). Thus, harder to fund.

It could have been done in phases.

The TTC 2006 report that stated that refurbishing the SRT and extending it to Malvern would have cost about 1/5th the cost of the scarborough subway.

Once that is done, you could make a Sheppard spur.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Quite possibly. I've also heard some people throw around the idea of converting the elevated guideway into a linear park, which I could definitely see happening, especially to provide all of the people working and living in the area some green space (correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be much around there).

There HAS been some talk of demolishing the guideway as well, but my own inclination (probably not surprising given I how much I like the wye) is that the elevated portion is far too useful for integration into whatever happens on Sheppard to remove even WITH the subway.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Quite possibly. I've also heard some people throw around the idea of converting the elevated guideway into a linear park, which I could definitely see happening, especially to provide all of the people working and living in the area some green space (correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be much around there).

Would make for a great elevated bicycle guideway. Until the fiscal conservatives nix the needed bicycle ramps at the "stations".

 

[syn]

It's a shame something like this was never seriously considered since it would address the issues of fixing the SRT, as well as providing rapid transit along Sheppard East (or, at least close to Sheppard East for most of the route, since it would largely run along the 401) as well as rapid transit towards Malvern, for about a fifth of the cost of the SSE, Sheppard Line extension and Eglinton East LRT combined (just guesstimating here, but the three projects will likely wind up costing around $11-12 billion total, as opposed to just over $2 billion for the Scarborough Wye, although I find myself thinking that those estimates were a little low). But any alternate plans are long out the window, at least for the SSE, and there's still plenty of time for an alternate plan to be proposed for the Sheppard corridor, since you never really know what kind of plans they're cooking up at Metrolinx these days, and any shovels in the ground for that project are probably at least a decade away.

It really is a shame that the attitude of transit planning in Toronto these days seems to be strictly subway or LRT (or BRT, if you look further out from the city), with nothing in between. It's ironic that this is the position we're in now, when the entire point of the ICTS technology was to bridge the gap between subway and LRT. At least the technology didn't completely go to waste and now forms most of Vancouver's SkyTrain system.

It wasn't seriously considered because Scarborough was sold SUBWAYS SUBWAYS SUBWAYS. The SSE isn't about sensible transit expansion.

As for any of these projects...until they're actually well under construction, I'd never say never on anything.

The Scarborough LRT replacement for the RT was planned, funded and already had tens of millions of dollars invested when it was canceled.

The DRL South was also well into the design phase when it was dumped.

This thread is now 15 years old. At this point nothing surprises me.

 

[Rainforest]

It could have been done in phases.

Sure it could, potentially. I am not saying it is a bad plan at all. Just saying it would be harder to get moving.

The TTC 2006 report that stated that refurbishing the SRT and extending it to Malvern would have cost about 1/5th the cost of the scarborough subway.

A longer, fully grade separate line for 1/5th the cost? Not a chance. The only reason SRT extension to Malvern looks that cheap, is that early, seriously low-balled estimates is the only kind of estimates available. Had that option proceeded into detailed planning, the cost would balloon at the same rate as the SSE cost.

 

[robmausser]

Sure it could, potentially. I am not saying it is a bad plan at all. Just saying it would be harder to get moving.



A longer, fully grade separate line for 1/5th the cost? Not a chance. The only reason SRT extension to Malvern looks that cheap, is that early, seriously low-balled estimates is the only kind of estimates available. Had that option proceeded into detailed planning, the cost would balloon at the same rate as the SSE cost.

You honestly think that a refurbishment of the SRT and extension above ground to Malvern would cost the same as a Scarborough Subway to Sheppard?

Wow, thats just all sorts of wrong I dont even know where to begin....

You are right, the cost would most likely end up being over the $600 million estimated in 2006, but to say that it would cost the same as a subway line? Just...no....

and even to play devils advocate, even if it DID cost as much, it would service way more people and have a better ROI.

But it wouldnt. I'm sorry. Unless there was some kind of corruption involved, underground transit is always exponentially more expensive than above ground, especially when you take into account that a large portion of that transit system is already completed and would only need refurbishment...