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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

I’ve heard people say that the delays on the University-Spadina Line got worse with the opening of the TYSSE.

As have I and have experienced said delays. EDIT: I assume you mean the delays south bound approaching Sheppard West.
 
There's a big difference between what the public debates and what transit nerds debate. The only complaints I ever hear from non-transitfans about Sheppard is the lack of completeness....that it is "a subway to nowhere". And on TYSSE, I've literally never heard a single person in real life make a negative comment about it.

The SSE if built would be just like that. The public will stop debating it the date after service launches and move on. I predict a nice groundswell of support for adding in-fill stations too after launch.
But really, I think that complaint about Sheppard's "completeness" is related to "appropriateness". Building it as a subway while at the same time stopping it short of where it was supposed to go because it cost too much got us in the situation we're in now. What if we actually built it as a SkyTrain or C-Train? We could probably be extending it above ground and grade-separating when needed (instead of trying to go underground all the way to STC or splitting the corridor with a mode change).
 
I’ve heard people say that the delays on the University-Spadina Line got worse with the opening of the TYSSE.

And a few people I know who used to easily get a seat on the train at Sheppard West / Wilson stations, are not too happy either.
 
There's a big difference between what the public debates and what transit nerds debate. The only complaints I ever hear from non-transitfans about Sheppard is the lack of completeness....that it is "a subway to nowhere". And on TYSSE, I've literally never heard a single person in real life make a negative comment about it.

The SSE if built would be just like that. The public will stop debating it the date after service launches and move on. I predict a nice groundswell of support for adding in-fill stations too after launch.
I tend to hear a lot of people that don't live or travel to North York often complain about its lack of ridership and how the rest of the system is choked beyond comprehension (they are partially right (fairly wrong on Sheppard ridership in terms of perspective), but the rhetoric annoys me). These people tend to have the extremist views of wanting to shut down the subway because it's so "useless for the majority of riders" (that's not how public transit works, but I digress). Somehow, a 30 million dollar annual operating cost (That number was pulled out of my ass, but is probably close to the actual number given these numbers) would make a huge difference (It would cost about the same to run the line with buses instead).

The people that complain about its lack of completeness are the ones living on Sheppard Avenue between Don Mills and McCowan, or Yonge and Allen Rd.

I doubt the public will stop debating, more likely will call it a boondoggle because they didn't add the infill stations.
 
There's a big difference between what the public debates and what transit nerds debate. The only complaints I ever hear from non-transitfans about Sheppard is the lack of completeness....that it is "a subway to nowhere". And on TYSSE, I've literally never heard a single person in real life make a negative comment about it.

The SSE if built would be just like that. The public will stop debating it the date after service launches and move on.

Will it?

Whatever one thinks of the Sheppard subway, it added a net number of stations to the system.

This extension adds a subway station, but removes 4 rapid transit stops.

You're right about the public debates around transit - unfortunately there are still quite a few people in Scarborough who don't realize that one of the costs of this extension is the elimination of the RT.

I predict a nice groundswell of support for adding in-fill stations too after launch.

Then people won't move on, will they?

Which transit projects will be put on the back burner/shelved to ensure Scarborough gets more subway stations and a return to RT levels of rapid transit access?
 
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The number of transit riders who benefit from the elimination of transfer at Kennedy when the subway extension opens will exceed the number of those inconvenienced by the loss of stops. The Midland and Ellesmere stops get pretty low usage, anyway.

I don't think adding infill stations will be an option; the tunnel will be too deep to make that practical. There is a good chance Lawrence East station will be restored in the design, and will open together with the STC station. But if not, then it will be gone for good.
 
The number of transit riders who benefit from the elimination of transfer at Kennedy when the subway extension opens will exceed the number of those inconvenienced by the loss of stops. The Midland and Ellesmere stops get pretty low usage, anyway.

I don't think adding infill stations will be an option; the tunnel will be too deep to make that practical. There is a good chance Lawrence East station will be restored in the design, and will open together with the STC station. But if not, then it will be gone for good.

And McCowan Station and Scarb Centre Station are effectively in the same spot. STC serves transit connections and the mall, while McCowan was an expensive PPUDO.
 
The main loss is Lawrence East, which is why it makes sense to consider building a viaduct instead of tunneling under the West Highland Creek. I don't know if it's feasible to tunnel that shallow with a large TBM, but it would significantly reduce construction costs for a station.
 
A viaduct, or keep the all-underground option but as a different route (likely Brimley). The omission of Lawrence E is a gross injustice, and why post-build the rider's views will differ significantly vs projects like TYSSE or Sheppard. A likely common refrain will be: 'hey, why no station at Lawrence'. And it would be a very valid complaint.
 
A viaduct, or keep the all-underground option but as a different route (likely Brimley). The omission of Lawrence E is a gross injustice, and why post-build the rider's views will differ significantly vs projects like TYSSE or Sheppard. A likely common refrain will be: 'hey, why no station at Lawrence'. And it would be a very valid complaint.

It would, but it also speaks to another issue - why is there a significant number of people in Scarborough who don't know what's going on?
 
It would, but it also speaks to another issue - why is there a significant number of people in Scarborough who don't know what's going on?

If we're being honest with ourselves, those who dislike the subway extension in Scarborough are in the huge minority. The only ones really affected by it are those that use the Lawrence East RT stop, and that number is fairly small (4K daily passengers (~8K daily uses), which is a huge minority of the 600K people living in Scarborough. Given that something like 20-30% of people in Scarborough oppose the extension, I presume most people know exactly what's going on, but the majority like that there will be a subway that serves the STC. This makes sense, given that most people already use the STC (which also includes Ellesmere and Midland stations) or Kennedy. Many are probably still hoping that we revert to the 3 stop plan which would most definitely serve the suburb better.

There's also the possibility that some are intrigued by the nature of the RER station at Lawrence East. Maybe they see that as a huge improvement to their commute.
 
If we're being honest with ourselves, those who dislike the subway extension in Scarborough are in the huge minority. The only ones really affected by it are those that use the Lawrence East RT stop, and that number is fairly small (4K daily passengers (~8K daily uses), which is a huge minority of the 600K people living in Scarborough. Given that something like 20-30% of people in Scarborough oppose the extension, I presume most people know exactly what's going on, but the majority like that there will be a subway that serves the STC. This makes sense, given that most people already use the STC (which also includes Ellesmere and Midland stations) or Kennedy. Many are probably still hoping that we revert to the 3 stop plan which would most definitely serve the suburb better.

There's also the possibility that some are intrigued by the nature of the RER station at Lawrence East. Maybe they see that as a huge improvement to their commute.

Based on what?

Virtually every poll on a subway vs LRT came out roughly 50/50. I'd also suggest that no one dislikes the idea of a subway extension. Do they like a one stop subway extension if it means scrapping the RT at a huge cost?

At a public meeting a year ago, people were very clearly frustrated with the one stop plan.

I seriously question how many people realize that the SSE means the RT is being eliminated. There seem to be a significant number of people who don't realize the SSE isn't supplementing the RT, it's completely replacing it. John Tory certainly doesn't mention it at all his photo ops in front of the RT touting the new extension. In fact, he outright lied to a citizen who questioned what would happen to the existing RT stops:

Brenda Thompson, of the group Scarborough Transit Action — an offshoot of TTC Riders, grilled the mayor about the project's costs, and called on him to go back to a light rail plan that would have featured several stops.
"What about the station at Ellesmere? What about the station at Centennial College?" Thompson asked the mayor, who replied that those stops would eventually be covered by SmartTrack or other options.

"There are going to be more new transit stations in Scarborough when this is finished," Tory said.


This all speaks to two unfortunate realities - politicians are not being honest about this extension (no surprise), but there's also a lack of engagement by the local population.
 
Based on what?

Virtually every poll on a subway vs LRT came out roughly 50/50. I'd also suggest that no one dislikes the idea of a subway extension. Do they like a one stop subway extension if it means scrapping the RT at a huge cost?

At a public meeting a year ago, people were very clearly frustrated with the one stop plan.

I seriously question how many people realize that the SSE means the RT is being eliminated. There seem to be a significant number of people who don't realize the SSE isn't supplementing the RT, it's completely replacing it. John Tory certainly doesn't mention it at all his photo ops in front of the RT touting the new extension. In fact, he outright lied to a citizen who questioned what would happen to the existing RT stops:

Brenda Thompson, of the group Scarborough Transit Action — an offshoot of TTC Riders, grilled the mayor about the project's costs, and called on him to go back to a light rail plan that would have featured several stops.
"What about the station at Ellesmere? What about the station at Centennial College?" Thompson asked the mayor, who replied that those stops would eventually be covered by SmartTrack or other options.


"There are going to be more new transit stations in Scarborough when this is finished," Tory said.

This all speaks to two unfortunate realities - politicians are not being honest about this extension (no surprise), but there's also a lack of engagement by the local population.

Apparently, Tory is talking about the SmartTrack stations. See link.

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Lawrence Kennedy.jpg


Refinements Underway:
• Island platforms will be replaced by side platforms to maintain Line 3 (SRT) operation until Line 2 extension is complete.​
• Bus connections will be provided at the top of the Lawrence Avenue East overpass, with weather protected passenger waiting areas and vertical connections to platforms.​
• Main station entrance will be located on east side of rail corridor.​

Lawrence East Rapid Transit (SRT) Station Closure

The current plan is to have the entire SRT Line fully operational during the construction of the Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension (SSE). The City is working with Metrolinx and TTC to develop a coordinated phasing strategy for the new construction of the SmartTrack station and decommissioning of the SRT.
 
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