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TTC: Scarborough Subway Extension (formerly LRT replacement) (City of Toronto, Design Phase)

crs1026

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April Fools joke or not, it does make me wonder if people in Mississauga would ride the subway the whole length to downtown Toronto or if it would be used for traveling within Mississauga.
Fun fact: New York’s A Train subway route is 31 miles long. Clearly, it’s not being used solely to get to Times Square.

I would be happy if Toronto beat that with a 32 mile line., but would prefer an affordable in-our-lifetime solution.

Tunnelling under Markland Woods? Elevated across the Golf Course at Etobicoke Creek? Not gonna happen. Any straight-lineish route to MCC deprives Mississauga of using the development opportunity along Dundas, and local subway service along Burnhamthorpe is just not needed.

A modest Line 2 terminal station at Cloverdale, with a one-minute transfer to a Dundas LRT, is good for 20-30 years plus. Let Mississauga decide if they want a cutoff to MCC versus a transfer to Hurontario LRT at Dundas/Hurontario. That 1-minute Cloverdale transfer is better than the walk-for-seven-minutes-to-seamless-subway idea that seems to be the plan at STCmahal.

Do a Dundas LRT, put the rest of the money that would be spent on a Mississauga subway into 2WAD GO service on the Milton route, to give that Etobicoke Center and downtown Toronto connectivity. Same end price, better overall transit plan. Mississaugans are too pragmatic to play the grievance based, need to feel special politics.

-Paul
 
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MisterF

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Fun fact: New York’s A Train subway route is 31 miles long. Clearly, it’s not being used solely to get to Times Square.

I would be happy if Toronto beat that with a 32 mile line., but would prefer an affordable in-our-lifetime solution.

Tunnelling under Markland Woods? Elevated across the Golf Course at Etobicoke Creek? Not gonna happen. Any straight-lineish route to MCC deprives Mississauga of using the development opportunity along Dundas, and local subway service along Burnhamthorpe is just not needed.

A modest Line 2 terminal station at Cloverdale, with a one-minute transfer to a Dundas LRT, is good for 20-30 years plus. Let Mississauga decide if they want a cutoff to MCC versus a transfer to Hurontario LRT at Dundas/Hurontario. That 1-minute Cloverdale transfer is better than the walk-for-seven-minutes-to-seamless-subway idea that seems to be the plan at STCmahal.

Do a Dundas LRT, put the rest of the money that would be spent on a Mississauga subway into 2WAD GO service on the Milton route, to give that Etobicoke Center and downtown Toronto connectivity. Same end price, better overall transit plan. Mississaugans are too pragmatic to play the grievance based, need to feel special politics.

-Paul
To add to your point, New York has an extensive inner city subway system that serves practically every corner of the central part of the city. Toronto, well, doesn't. New York has no subway to Yonkers or White Plains or Hempstead or Paterson. The system doesn't go east of Queens or north of the Bronx. New Jersey has its own system but even that is very limited. New York's subway is very Manhattan-centric, while the suburbs are almost exclusively served by commuter and light rail. This is a much better model that what Toronto has been doing for the last several decades.

Why anyone would want Toronto to have subway lines longer than a city that's more than 3x the size is beyond me.
 

BurlOak

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This April Fools joke of a Mississauga line is just that... a Joke... it isn't any more credible than a line to Pickering. GO, RER, Smarttrack is supposed to be handling our outside areas and instead somehow you guys are fantasizing about hypothetical 10-20 billion dollar subways to Mississauga. OneCity is winning if you let him derail a thread with this ludicrous proposal which I am still not sure he knew was a joke to begin with.
Yes, the only suggestion of a subway to SQ1 has been on April 1.

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/subway-to-mississauga-routing.8962/
 

syn

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To add to your point, New York has an extensive inner city subway system that serves practically every corner of the central part of the city. Toronto, well, doesn't. New York has no subway to Yonkers or White Plains or Hempstead or Paterson. The system doesn't go east of Queens or north of the Bronx. New Jersey has its own system but even that is very limited. New York's subway is very Manhattan-centric, while the suburbs are almost exclusively served by commuter and light rail. This is a much better model that what Toronto has been doing for the last several decades.

Why anyone would want Toronto to have subway lines longer than a city that's more than 3x the size is beyond me.
Because they're not devising transit plans, they're coming up with ideas to make things easier for drivers with the assumption that underground transit is some sort of right.

You make a great point too - as downtown rapidly increases in density and expands, there is more than a legitimate argument for more stations within the core.
 

nfitz

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Wow, about 400 metres of tunnels and walkways east-west. But then it stops right on the west side of McCowan. Would a walkway under or over McCowan have killed them?

Gosh, this might get rid of the time for transfer at Kennedy, but for many, it might add an even longer transfer at Scarborough Town Centre!
 

OneCity

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Wow, about 400 metres of tunnels and walkways east-west. But then it stops right on the west side of McCowan. Would a walkway under or over McCowan have killed them?

Gosh, this might get rid of the time for transfer at Kennedy, but for many, it might add an even longer transfer at Scarborough Town Centre!
The McCowan station entrance/exit makes far more sense on the east side closer to the precinct if not both have an opening on both sides. Its great to see the aesthetics enhanced but it almost seems from the article the design team may have taken the TTC for a ride in terms of access details.
 
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Streety McCarface

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To add to your point, New York has an extensive inner city subway system that serves practically every corner of the central part of the city. Toronto, well, doesn't. New York has no subway to Yonkers or White Plains or Hempstead or Paterson. The system doesn't go east of Queens or north of the Bronx. New Jersey has its own system but even that is very limited. New York's subway is very Manhattan-centric, while the suburbs are almost exclusively served by commuter and light rail. This is a much better model that what Toronto has been doing for the last several decades.

Why anyone would want Toronto to have subway lines longer than a city that's more than 3x the size is beyond me.
While it's true that a 31 mile (50km) subway line is a little absurd for Toronto, the fact still remains that New York has a subway system that is 170% the size of Toronto's when compared with population (in other words, per unit of population, the NYC subway is 70% larger than Toronto's, and of course, about 1/3 of their system is aboveground, which is something Toronto should really look at). It should also be noted that Toronto is still growing. While the existing enhancements (Crosstown (underground), SSE, DRL) will close that gap significantly, you would have to also build the Yonge North subway extension, RLN, and RLW in order to be fully on par with New York in terms of subway length/population. It should also be noted that New York's subway trains are significantly larger than ours, so total capacity is actually much larger in New York than it is here. Finally, when you consider the fact that "route miles" does not include the presence of express lines, the length of the New York city subway increases by about 50%. If we are ever to catch up in terms of capacity here, we would need to build a full Sheppard line, subways further into Mississauga, another relief line on Dundas, Relief Line Northwest, and Quad track the Yonge line.

Also, almost no one in the suburbs of New York City (Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens) uses the LIRR or MNRR to get to and from work -- everyone takes the subway. Having the subway extend to the middle of Scarborough and Etobicoke (in the long term anyways) is not far fetched, especially for a growing city of our size.

A better city to compare transit to is Chicago, which 2.25* the size of our system in population/km metrics. While the vast majority of their system is aboveground, it shows what rapid transit can look like in a city relative to our size.
 

Voltz

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Was there really no better option than a 400m walk between the station and the mall..? Thats not a negligible distance. Thats close to the distance between stations downtown!
There was a much better plan, the plan that we had worked on and studied for years, that would have had a station right where the existing one is now, with a rapid transit line that would have extended much further into Scarborough, and not put political and financial road blocks in the way of other lines in Scarborough.
 

syn

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While it's true that a 31 mile (50km) subway line is a little absurd for Toronto, the fact still remains that New York has a subway system that is 170% the size of Toronto's when compared with population (in other words, per unit of population, the NYC subway is 70% larger than Toronto's, and of course, about 1/3 of their system is aboveground, which is something Toronto should really look at). It should also be noted that Toronto is still growing. While the existing enhancements (Crosstown (underground), SSE, DRL) will close that gap significantly, you would have to also build the Yonge North subway extension, RLN, and RLW in order to be fully on par with New York in terms of subway length/population. It should also be noted that New York's subway trains are significantly larger than ours, so total capacity is actually much larger in New York than it is here. Finally, when you consider the fact that "route miles" does not include the presence of express lines, the length of the New York city subway increases by about 50%. If we are ever to catch up in terms of capacity here, we would need to build a full Sheppard line, subways further into Mississauga, another relief line on Dundas, Relief Line Northwest, and Quad track the Yonge line.

Also, almost no one in the suburbs of New York City (Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens) uses the LIRR or MNRR to get to and from work -- everyone takes the subway. Having the subway extend to the middle of Scarborough and Etobicoke (in the long term anyways) is not far fetched, especially for a growing city of our size.

A better city to compare transit to is Chicago, which 2.25* the size of our system in population/km metrics. While the vast majority of their system is aboveground, it shows what rapid transit can look like in a city relative to our size.
Queens (Population Density: 8,324/km2)



Brooklyn (Population Density: 14,404.2/km2)



Scarborough (Population Density: 3,367.6/km2)



Scarborough cannot be compared to Queens and Brooklyn, both of which are dense, urban environments unto themselves. Subways work in those boroughs because of the concentration of business & residents, the built form and the local transit culture, critical ingredients all missing in Scarborough.

Subways in Queens and Brooklyn aren't just underground routes from bedroom suburbs to keep roads clear.

A better comparison with Scarborough would be White Plains, a suburban municipality of about the same density. It's connected to Manhattan via commuter rail.
 
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Streety McCarface

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Queens (Population Density: 8,324/km2)



Brooklyn (Population Density: 14,404.2/km2)



Scarborough (Population Density: 3,367.6/km2)



Scarborough cannot be compared to Queens and Brooklyn, both of which are dense, urban environments unto themselves. Subways work in those boroughs because of the concentration of business, residents , built form and the local transit culture, critical ingredients all missing in Scarborough.

Subways in Queens and Brooklyn aren't just underground routes from bedroom suburbs to keep roads clear.

A better comparison with Scarborough would be White Plains, a suburban municipality of about the same density. It's connected to Manhattan via commuter rail.
Again, population density isn't everything, especially over such a large area like Scarborough. Many areas exceed the population densities of all three averages for the boroughs. Scarborough has 3 subway stations, each of the boroughs (except SI) has at least 50. I'd say that's pretty disproportionate.

Also, Scarborough has a far better bus network than anywhere in NYC. It makes sense for an area like Scarborough to have a trunk line where people can transfer from buses to subway. This is how transit in Toronto works.
 

idc24

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Queens (Population Density: 8,324/km2)



Brooklyn (Population Density: 14,404.2/km2)



Scarborough (Population Density: 3,367.6/km2)



Scarborough cannot be compared to Queens and Brooklyn, both of which are dense, urban environments unto themselves. Subways work in those boroughs because of the concentration of business, residents , built form and the local transit culture, critical ingredients all missing in Scarborough.

Subways in Queens and Brooklyn aren't just underground routes from bedroom suburbs to keep roads clear.

A better comparison with Scarborough would be White Plains, a suburban municipality of about the same density. It's connected to Manhattan via commuter rail.

Great comparison.
White Plains (58,241) is a large bedroom community that is served by a major commuter Metro North line that goes to Grand Central. It is the third-busiest commuter railroad in North America in terms of annual ridership. Downtown White Plains is built around the transit terminal like Scarborough City Centre. It is not far from office buildings and condos making it very convenient to commuters. White Plains station handles 2.8 million passengers per year.


White Plains station

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Plains_station
 
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syn

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Again, population density isn't everything, especially over such a large area like Scarborough. Many areas exceed the population densities of all three averages for the boroughs. Scarborough has 3 subway stations, each of the boroughs (except SI) has at least 50. I'd say that's pretty disproportionate.

Also, Scarborough has a far better bus network than anywhere in NYC. It makes sense for an area like Scarborough to have a trunk line where people can transfer from buses to subway. This is how transit in Toronto works.
When it comes to subways, density (commercial and residential) is the key factor in all of this.

That's exactly why New York bouroughs can accommodate so many stations.

Brooklyn on it's own has almost the same population as the entire City of Toronto and a population density that's about 75% higher. It's not a bedroom suburb with people just trying to get downtown - Brooklyn is a destination unto itself, a place where people live and work.

This is why more subway stations in Scarborough doesn't make sense - it's not anywhere near being a Brooklyn (or Queens for that matter).
 

Rainforest

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There was a much better plan, the plan that we had worked on and studied for years, that would have had a station right where the existing one is now, with a rapid transit line that would have extended much further into Scarborough, and not put political and financial road blocks in the way of other lines in Scarborough.
SSE doesn't put any road blocks in the way of other lines, either.
 

Rainforest

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Subway will work in Scarborough. A few complainers here will keep whining, while tens of thousands of riders will travel by subway every day.
 

MisterF

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While it's true that a 31 mile (50km) subway line is a little absurd for Toronto, the fact still remains that New York has a subway system that is 170% the size of Toronto's when compared with population (in other words, per unit of population, the NYC subway is 70% larger than Toronto's, and of course, about 1/3 of their system is aboveground, which is something Toronto should really look at). It should also be noted that Toronto is still growing. While the existing enhancements (Crosstown (underground), SSE, DRL) will close that gap significantly, you would have to also build the Yonge North subway extension, RLN, and RLW in order to be fully on par with New York in terms of subway length/population. It should also be noted that New York's subway trains are significantly larger than ours, so total capacity is actually much larger in New York than it is here. Finally, when you consider the fact that "route miles" does not include the presence of express lines, the length of the New York city subway increases by about 50%. If we are ever to catch up in terms of capacity here, we would need to build a full Sheppard line, subways further into Mississauga, another relief line on Dundas, Relief Line Northwest, and Quad track the Yonge line.

Also, almost no one in the suburbs of New York City (Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens) uses the LIRR or MNRR to get to and from work -- everyone takes the subway. Having the subway extend to the middle of Scarborough and Etobicoke (in the long term anyways) is not far fetched, especially for a growing city of our size.

A better city to compare transit to is Chicago, which 2.25* the size of our system in population/km metrics. While the vast majority of their system is aboveground, it shows what rapid transit can look like in a city relative to our size.
But that's just the point I was trying to make. The NYC subway is what it is because it doesn't go to NYC's equivalents of Mississauga and Scarborough. It serves only the densest, most pedestrian oriented parts of the urban region, leaving the rest for commuter and light rail. If Toronto were to build subways like New York, it would build a dense web of lines south of Eglinton.

Not that Toronto should completely emulate NYC. We have the luxury of an existing rail system that's well suited for RER. With a freight bypass, that includes the line through the heart of Mississauga. That system will serve auto-oriented suburbs more effectively and affordably than subways ever could, and unlike NYC, it will also serve much of the inner city. So most of our new subways can go where they're really needed: dense, central areas that can't be served by mainline rail.

Again, population density isn't everything, especially over such a large area like Scarborough. Many areas exceed the population densities of all three averages for the boroughs. Scarborough has 3 subway stations, each of the boroughs (except SI) has at least 50. I'd say that's pretty disproportionate.

Also, Scarborough has a far better bus network than anywhere in NYC. It makes sense for an area like Scarborough to have a trunk line where people can transfer from buses to subway. This is how transit in Toronto works.
He also talked about built form, which is critical. The built form of Scarborough is nothing like the Bronx or Queens. And you don't plan subways by dividing the population by the number of stations. The Long Island suburbs have 2.6 million people and zero subway stations.

Subway will work in Scarborough. A few complainers here will keep whining, while tens of thousands of riders will travel by subway every day.
Tens of thousands would also use cheaper, more effective solutions.
 

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