Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[steveintoronto]

Tory and Co. have wanted to keep the subway moving forward so it could be handed off to the Province

I see...So what's the tax for?

ELIZABETH CHURCH AND KALEIGH ROGERS
PUBLISHED OCTOBER 8, 2013 UPDATED MAY 11, 2018
Globe and Mail

[...] Council voted to endorse the 1.6 per cent tax hike, rejecting a compromise move by the city's budget chair to backload the pain by delaying the bulk of the increase until 2015 – after the next civic election. The increase will be implemented over three years, beginning with 0.5 percent in 2014.
[...]
Once fully in place, the levy will add an average of $41 annually to Toronto homeowners' tax bills for the next 30 years. The money, along with increased development fees, will be earmarked to pay for the city's portion of the project – estimated at $910-million.
[...]
One of the most dramatic moments in the debate came after Scarborough Councillor Paul Ainslie backed the light rail plan.

"You are say this with a straight face, right. This is not a joke?" asked the mayor, who up until that point had been silent in the council debate. "You are a Scarborough councillor. You put a motion forward to kill the subway system when it is the number one issue by far," Mr. Ford said.

Mr. Ainslie defended his position, saying that he did not believe a subway was the most cost-effective way to deliver transit to Scarborough residents.

Councillor Doug Ford, whose microphone was cut off as he raised his voice to challenge Mr. Ainslie on his LRT support, left the council floor to make his point directly to the press. "This is a person that is voting against his own people in Scarborough – this is disgusting," he said, warning that he will continue the fight in the next municipal campaign. "The vote that is going to count is when he knocks on the door for the next election. We are going to make it very clear that he does not support the people in his area," he said.

During Tuesday's debate, city manager Joe Pennachetti told councillors that paying for the city's portion of the subway extension will affect other capital projects. "The bottom line is there is going to be impact across all of our programs with the approval of a subway as an option," he said.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...d-cost-to-toronto-homeowners/article14745918/

 

[OneCity]

I see...So what's the tax for?

ELIZABETH CHURCH AND KALEIGH ROGERS
PUBLISHED OCTOBER 8, 2013 UPDATED MAY 11, 2018
Globe and Mail

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...d-cost-to-toronto-homeowners/article14745918/

Tax was the final signal the City was completely done with Transit City, there was no middle ground in dealing with the clear flaws, and the time had past to just move on. What happens with this tax going forward will be decided by how the Province handles the upcoming subway upload.

Best case scenario for the City in terms of capital funding is if the Province alleviates it's role from all future street level LRT moving forward and takes on the City's share of the subways. Well soon see.

 

[steveintoronto]

What happens with this tax going forward will be decided by how the Province handles the upcoming subway upload.

Well if that's what you think, best you review what Ford's already stated on it, not that Ford has even half a clue on what he can remember of what he said, let alone what he can't.

Here's a hint: (gist) "The City will continue to operate it, but all capital costs will be assumed by the Province".

And then there's the opportunity for a court case on the tax collected so far, and whether it has to be returned to *the taxpayers*. (Gosh now, who would use a mantra like that?)

 

[MisterF]

Yes, they would.

But now they will use better, more effective solution, which is SSE.

There were options that would have been cheaper and more effective than the subway.

While you quote Scarborough, as a whole, to have a population density of around 3K People/km^2, the actual population density of the STC is somewhere around 6400 People/km^2

It's like this in a lot of locations in Scarborough, with small pockets of density that justify a subway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto_neighbourhoods

I didn't state any statistics for Scarborough, I think you're confusing me with someone else. Still, the fact that Scarborough has only "small pockets of density" is kind of the point. Small pockets of density generally don't justify underground subways. An above ground line might be cheap enough to justify the cost. Maybe running on an elevated guideway of some sort. If only something like that existed...

Long Island also has the busiest commuter railroad in the world with third rail electrified grade separated rapid transit -- the general equivalent of a subway. The usage of the LIRR is so great that it surpasses the subway ridership of half of all American systems. Also, with that logic, explain Relief Line North and Relief Line West?

My point exactly. LIRR uses regular rail lines that have been upgraded to have frequent, all day service. It's only partially grade separated and electrified by the way. It's not a new subway line that runs parallel to an existing elevated rapid transit line and an existing commuter rail line. If something like LIRR were planned for Scarborough (for example, RER trains that would use the Stouffville line with a branch to STC), it would be cheaper and get Scarborough residents downtown a lot faster than the subway. With no transfer.

What would you like me to explain about the Relief line? RL North is key to relief of Line 1. It accomplishes that goal in a way that RER on existing rail lines can't, and so effectively that its route through relatively low density neighbourhoods is justified. RL West goes through a highly dense, fast growing urban environment that is mostly poorly served by existing rail lines.

 

[BurlOak]

Well if that's what you think, best you review what Ford's already stated on it, not that Ford has even half a clue on what he can remember of what he said, let alone what he can't.

Here's a hint: (gist) "The City will continue to operate it, but all capital costs will be assumed by the Province".

And then there's the opportunity for a court case on the tax collected so far, and whether it has to be returned to *the taxpayers*. (Gosh now, who would use a mantra like that?)

Can a politicians election promise be challenged in court? If so, Trudeau is in big trouble.

Does Fords "legally binding" election promise mean that the money collect so far must be returned to Toronto, or only that no future taxes go to this project? Does the City get reimbursed for design expenses due to the Ford election promise? Does the City get reimbursed for the planning and design costs of the SRT/LRT - because that was a step along the process that got us to the SSE"?

My guess is they will have a real legal agreement about who is responsible for which costs.

 

[Rainforest]

There were options that would have been cheaper and more effective than the subway.

One cheaper option is available but it would be less effective than the subway.

 

[Rainforest]

Quick question- is the three station option still on the menu, or is Tory pushing ahead with the Scarborough Town Centre Express?

Hard to say until the next move by the new provincial government.

I would guess that Lawrence East station will be back in, and there might be a Brimley / Eglinton station. STC will be the terminus (not Sheppard, as that would boost the cost quite a bit).

 

[syn]

My point exactly. LIRR uses regular rail lines that have been upgraded to have frequent, all day service. It's only partially grade separated and electrified by the way. It's not a new subway line that runs parallel to an existing elevated rapid transit line and an existing commuter rail line. If something like LIRR were planned for Scarborough (for example, RER trains that would use the Stouffville line with a branch to STC), it would be cheaper and get Scarborough residents downtown a lot faster than the subway. With no transfer.

It would appear that an LRT/RER combination would most effectively serve the needs of Scarborough commuters and those who travel within Scarborough, for a far more reasonable price.

 

[Rainforest]

In reality, the most effective transit model for Scarborough is SSE plus lower-order feeder lines connecting to the subway.

Frequent RER service with a branch to STC would be an interesting solution, and potentially more effective than the subway extension. However, it is clear that the city is not upgrading the Union Rail Corridor to capacity suitable for such service, therefore a RER branch to STC remains a pipe dream. While the subway option is doable and affordable.

 

[BurlOak]

Hard to say until the next move by the new provincial government.

I would guess that Lawrence East station will be back in, and there might be a Brimley / Eglinton station. STC will be the terminus (not Sheppard, as that would boost the cost quite a bit).

I am not sure that cost is that great a concern for Ford. A politician always worries about the next election. Having construction started by next election is all that's required. The bulk of the money will be spend in the 2nd Ford term (end even the 3rd term is more than this term). I would guess that it's more a Stintz idea and not a Ford idea that will keep the terminus at STC. Also, and STC terminus is more compatible with a Sheppard line to STC - another thing that Ford supports.

 

[Voltz]

SSE doesn't put any road blocks in the way of other lines, either.

Sure it does, the political garbage that led to it stopped the Sheppard LRT, and now there is no funding left for anything else, like the Eglinton East LRT,

The rest of Scarborough is going to get nothing.

 

[Rainforest]

I am not sure that cost is that great a concern for Ford. A politician always worries about the next election. Having construction started by next election is all that's required. The bulk of the money will be spend in the 2nd Ford term (end even the 3rd term is more than this term). I would guess that it's more a Stintz idea and not a Ford idea that will keep the terminus at STC.

When Stinz was on this file, the subway was slated to end at Sheppard. We don't know if Stinz would accept the one-stop compromise or would fight for the 3-stop version, since she quit the municipal politics well before the one-stop proposal was born.

Also, and STC terminus is more compatible with a Sheppard line to STC - another thing that Ford supports.

Good point. I'm not a big fan of sending 2 subway lines to STC, but that kind of reasoning might help in getting at least one line built quickly. Get SSE in service, connect it to the local routes, and we can worry about the Sheppard corridor later.

 

[Rainforest]

Sure it does, the political garbage that led to it stopped the Sheppard LRT, and now there is no funding left for anything else, like the Eglinton East LRT.

Eglinton East LRT didn't have any committed funding before the SSE project, so it's not any worse off.

Sheppard LRT still has funding, on paper. If the local politicians keep blocking it, that's not SSE's fault. From the technical perspective, SSE and Sheppard LRT can co-exist.

The rest of Scarborough is going to get nothing.

They will get a few LRT and/or BRT transit lines in parallel with the rest of the city.

 

[BurlOak]

When Stinz was on this file, the subway was slated to end at Sheppard. We don't know if Stinz would accept the one-stop compromise or would fight for the 3-stop version, since she quit the municipal politics well before the one-stop proposal was born.

Maybe I didn't phrase this quite right. The comment was purely about ending the subway at STC or Sheppard. Sheppard was Stinz' idea. STC has been the Ford idea for a decade - well before his compromise of combined ECLRT/SRT.

 

[steveintoronto]

If something like LIRR were planned for Scarborough (for example, RER trains that would use the Stouffville line with a branch to STC), it would be cheaper and get Scarborough residents downtown a lot faster than the subway. With no transfer.

It boggles the mind, let alone logic, why Scarberians claiming to want a "connection directly downtown from STC" would prefer it by subway. But I suspect a poll taken of Scarbro' would show that it's a highly vocal minority. Not only would RER connect them downtown in a much shorter time, it would connect them north and east as well. Surely that makes more sense for a 'borough' to claim it's a real 'downtown'. But perhaps not...MNR actually makes a better analog than LIRR, as HV overhead AC catenary is used on the outer extremities of MetroNorth, sharing track and current with the North East Corridor in parts as technically GO is planned to do, save that GO is to use 25kV catenary, the international standard.

Can a politicians election promise be challenged in court? If so, Trudeau is in big trouble.

Once again, you completely misunderstand. The tax is no "promise". It's already started being collected by the City for a specific purpose. Absent that purpose, there's a very valid legal question as to who that tax levy belongs to. There will be more on this issue in the months to come.

Frequent RER service with a branch to STC would be an interesting solution, and potentially more effective than the subway extension. However, it is clear that the city is not upgrading the Union Rail Corridor to capacity suitable for such service, therefore a RER branch to STC remains a pipe dream. While the subway option is doable and affordable.

The City has nothing to do with operating the USRC. Ironically, they have a legal title on owning the land and the air-rights as detailed in the Esplanade Tripartite Agreement, and ruled on a number of times by the SCC, but the rail companies as named in the Agreement (one of which is now Metrolinx operating as GO Transit) have the right of use in perpetuity if done so as per the Agreement. And there is certainly a plan to widen it into both the east and western throats of Union Station. This is necessary and planned for the Stoufville Line, which is planned to be RER up to Onionville (sic). A spur to STC makes perfect sense, albeit the present curve of the RoW where it meets the Uxbridge Line must be softened.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/rer/rer_stouffville.aspx