Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[sixrings]

Again, I support a Scarborough subway, but I also want it to be built right. There are far too many people in Scarborough to be served by one LRT in the long term.

Scarborough was supposed to be served by a Sheppard LRT, a LRT conversion of the SRT, and an Eglinton LRT... That is 3 LRTs with countless stops. Now you are getting 1 subway stop. Maybe you should have written.... There are far too many people in Scarborough to be served by 1 subway stop in the long term. That is what you mean after all. Since God forbid LRTs enter Scarborough.

 

[11th]

what is the excuse for the last decade which has seen an office boom basically exclusively downtown?

It's already one city of Toronto during that boom. The outer centres had missed boat because of the slump and amalgamation. There is now little to no incentives of building in the outer 416. Then of course there is the prestige of locating offices downtown.
Off topic - Canadian Tire came close to having their office at Leslie. Too bad that plan fell through.

 

[sixrings]

It's already one city of Toronto during that boom. The outer centres had missed boat because of the slump and amalgamation. There is now little to no incentives of building in the outer 416. Then of course there is the prestige of locating offices downtown.
Off topic - Canadian Tire came close to having their office at Leslie. Too bad that plan fell through.

So what youre saying is that even if we extend Sheppard to make it longer it wont make a difference because companies prefer to be downtown. Ill assume you believe that STC wont see office boom either after the extension. So I dont understand why you wrote to SYN that there wasnt the development because Sheppard was a Stub in your previous posts.

 

[11th]

So what youre saying is that even if we extend Sheppard to make it longer it wont make a difference because companies prefer to be downtown. Ill assume you believe that STC wont see office boom either after the extension. So I dont understand why you wrote to SYN that there wasnt the development because Sheppard was a Stub in your previous posts.

It's another side of a coin, just to say Sheppard shouldn't be brought into that discussion in the first place. It takes more than not being a stub to get those commercial development boom. Will an extended Sheppard be a (not "the") catalyst? Maybe, maybe not. Then again, Sheppard did see a lot of the residential boom.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Scarborough was supposed to be served by a Sheppard LRT, a LRT conversion of the SRT, and an Eglinton LRT... That is 3 LRTs with countless stops. Now you are getting 1 subway stop. Maybe you should have written.... There are far too many people in Scarborough to be served by 1 subway stop in the long term. That is what you mean after all. Since God forbid LRTs enter Scarborough.

Again, the LRT system itself was flawed. They do not allow for seamless transfers between the existing system, or the bus network, which, in my eyes, makes them extremely flawed. The reason the grade separated option wins is because of the transferability between other routes. Eglinton East works because it serves the corridor it travels on, not to be fed by other bus routes, and it connects directly with the Eglinton Crosstown. The SRT replacement LRT wins on transferability between buses, but not to existing transit, and, capacity is decreased, while dwell times increase. The beast solution for that corridor without a subway is to replace the SRT with ICTS, it's even cheaper than the SRT replacement with LRT. The Subway wins because of a seamless transfer at Kennedy, and the fact that you (should) easily be able to transfer from a bus terminal to the subway. The Sheppard East LRT loses on all accounts because it's just a capacity increase of the 85 bus, which, quite frankly, isn't the best bus to replace with LRT right now. I can think of at least 10 other routes that would be better suited for LRT than the 85.

Also, more stops does not equate to better service. Redundant stops only increase trip time and reduce the willingness of people to take transit. I'd much rather bike to a subway station or take a bus to a seamless transfer at a subway station (even if it ends up taking 5 minutes longer) than taking a bus or walking a long way to the LRT stop. Why? It's far less stressful, and it means there's storage for my bike if that's my choice off transit. Scarborough is, generally, not dense enough for LRT, but it is dense enough for 1 or 2 dedicated transit priority corridors that everywhere else feeds into. With the LRT plan, not much is changed.

 

[sixrings]

Again, the LRT system itself was flawed. They do not allow for seamless transfers between the existing system, or the bus network, which, in my eyes, makes them extremely flawed. The reason the grade separated option wins is because of the transferability between other routes. Eglinton East works because it serves the corridor it travels on, not to be fed by other bus routes, and it connects directly with the Eglinton Crosstown. The SRT replacement LRT wins on transferability between buses, but not to existing transit, and, capacity is decreased, while dwell times increase. The beast solution for that corridor without a subway is to replace the SRT with ICTS, it's even cheaper than the SRT replacement with LRT. The Subway wins because of a seamless transfer at Kennedy, and the fact that you (should) easily be able to transfer from a bus terminal to the subway. The Sheppard East LRT loses on all accounts because it's just a capacity increase of the 85 bus, which, quite frankly, isn't the best bus to replace with LRT right now. I can think of at least 10 other routes that would be better suited for LRT than the 85.

Also, more stops does not equate to better service. Redundant stops only increase trip time and reduce the willingness of people to take transit. I'd much rather bike to a subway station or take a bus to a seamless transfer at a subway station (even if it ends up taking 5 minutes longer) than taking a bus or walking a long way to the LRT stop. Why? It's far less stressful, and it means there's storage for my bike if that's my choice off transit. Scarborough is, generally, not dense enough for LRT, but it is dense enough for 1 or 2 dedicated transit priority corridors that everywhere else feeds into. With the LRT plan, not much is changed.

I dont agree with your assessment (as a former Scarborough resident who would have used the Sheppard LRT especially if it connects to a DRL long) but meh... your subway is flawed and pricey too... No plan is perfect. The LRT plan would have served more riders and would have helped create a network(btw most scarborough TTC riders are traveling within Scarborough). You seem to only be focused on getting downtown ASAP. I thought that was what Smarttrack was for but thats another topic.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I dont agree with your assessment (as a former Scarborough resident who would have used the Sheppard LRT especially if it connects to a DRL long) but meh... your subway is flawed and pricey too... No plan is perfect. The LRT plan would have served more riders and would have helped create a network(btw most scarborough TTC riders are traveling within Scarborough). You seem to only be focused on getting downtown ASAP. I thought that was what Smarttrack was for but thats another topic.

The subway is not the best way to get to Union or the waterfront assuming RER is built, however, even with RER, the subway will be the superior method of getting everywhere in the city outside from south of queen street (assuming the DRL isn't built). Most people in Scarborough aren't going to Bay & King, but places like U of T, offices on Yonge/Eglinton, Jobs along Bloor Street, or to places like the Eaton Center. My point is that LRT lines are not the saving grace for all transit in this city. They will do wonders for corridors like Finch, Jane, Dufferin, Victoria Park, and Eglinton East, but not on Sheppard East. Scarborough transit needs a balanced roster, which includes LRT on Eglinton East (and maybe Steeles in the future), BRT on Sheppard until a subway is viable (beyond 2040), and RER.

I'm not disagreeing the current subway plan is flawed (it's honestly awful), but there's nothing wrong with having an opinion on the best method of building transit.

 

[sixrings]

The subway is not the best way to get to Union or the waterfront assuming RER is built, however, even with RER, the subway will be the superior method of getting everywhere in the city outside from south of queen street (assuming the DRL isn't built). Most people in Scarborough aren't going to Bay & King, but places like U of T, offices on Yonge/Eglinton, Jobs along Bloor Street, or to places like the Eaton Center. My point is that LRT lines are not the saving grace for all transit in this city. They will do wonders for corridors like Finch, Jane, Dufferin, Victoria Park, and Eglinton East, but not on Sheppard East. Scarborough transit needs a balanced roster, which includes LRT on Eglinton East (and maybe Steeles in the future), BRT on Sheppard until a subway is viable (beyond 2040), and RER.

I'm not disagreeing the current subway plan is flawed (it's honestly awful), but there's nothing wrong with having an opinion on the best method of building transit.

So what you're saying is that people are going to be OK walking 400m from Bus to Subway at STC but wont be willing to walk 997m from Union to Eaton Center? I am also confused because UPX is seeing an increase in riders primarily from Weston and Bloor riders who are finding it convenient to get downtown. Are you suggesting that people from the West are more likely to want to travel to around Union or are you suggesting that people from the West are better walkers and or less complainers than the people out east?

 

[11th]

When we look at the transit trips pattern map for Scarborough, intra-Scarborough trips have the greatest share; but if we combine trips to outside of Scarborough (but within 416), it's at 47%, roughly the same as the 48% for intra-Scarborough. It's easy to say longer trips will benefit more, relative to shorter trips, from improved rapid transit connections. Going by that map, SSE, Crosstown East and Sheppard (east and west) all have their merits, in my opinion.

 

[OneCity]

This is certainly not the most practical location as a lonely one stop extension. With the hospital stop added back in I can understand the location a better but even then the "Big Bend" concept seemed to be far better if the goal was simply to provide a direct connection into the City Centre.

I have to wonder if the current concept was possibly designed around a having the RT return in the future to connect the somewhat remote stop from the City Centre to EELRT thru Centennial College to Malvern.

 

[sixrings]

View attachment 153768
When we look at the transit trips pattern map for Scarborough, intra-Scarborough trips have the greatest share; but if we combine trips to outside of Scarborough (but within 416), it's at 47%, roughly the same as the 48% for intra-Scarborough. It's easy to say longer trips will benefit more, relative to shorter trips, from improved rapid transit connections. Going by that map, SSE, Crosstown East and Sheppard (east and west) all have their merits, in my opinion.

Except that the city has to worry about more than just Scarboroughs transit. So you get a piece of the transit financial share. Don't expect all of it. BTW the DRL long is going to do more for Scarboroughs downtown transit needs more than either a sheppard subway or a danforth extension could.

 

[BurlOak]

I blame Harris for putting us in the mess we have now, and I believe the vast majority of people here do as well. . . .

As far as we know, the crosstown is nothing more than a St. Clair style LRT with better stop spacing east of Don Mills.

But for everyone who agrees with this half in-median LRT is a huge Harris fan, because without Harris, it would not be possible.

 

[APTA-2048]

But for everyone who agrees with this half in-median LRT is a huge Harris fan, because without Harris, it would not be possible.

Yeah a Sheppard-like stub would have been so much better than an actual crosstown line.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Besides the bus terminal design, I actually think that the station itself is pretty aesthetically pleasing. Maybe not as nice as some of the TYSSE stations, but still up there for the TTC. Just curious what the platform-level will look like.

 

[syn]

what is the excuse for the last decade which has seen an office boom basically exclusively downtown? I dont know the names of all the buildings at the top of my head but there are three across from Trump, a new RBC, a new Telus.... all downtown

Exactly.

What about Kennedy? It's not connected to a 'stub', yet the area remains decidedly suburban in nature.

Why would the fact it's not a long line deter office and residential construction in the area? One would think with lower prices and a direct subway connection it would be highly in demand.

Ultimately it doesn't matter if developers don't see the value.

Kind of like how it's taken many decades for other areas on the subway line to start seeing any kind of serious growth (or even talk of growth). A subway doesn't guarantee anything.