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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

1. You are welcome to state your opinions in the other thread.
2. The so-called acceptance that the subway is coming is very far from universal. You are in a minority.
3. The subway is not coming, at least not in its present form.

Politically it is near universally accepted at this point, both the Liberals and Conservatives provincially and federally want it built.

The City's really to blame putting forward a one stop subway proposal for what should really be 4 stops. I'm not happy with one stop only but it will still be a vast improvement over the status quo.
 
Politically it is near universally accepted at this point, both the Liberals and Conservatives provincially and federally want it built.

The City's really to blame putting forward a one stop subway proposal for what should really be 4 stops. I'm not happy with one stop only but it will still be a vast improvement over the status quo.
I think this is what people can't agree on.
 
Don't look at me, look at Sixrings and syn.
when the RT conversion to LRT was universally accepted to be built there were a number of people on here, yourself, onecity, coffee1 and more whom didn't accept it and argued and argued and argued. Now I am not saying they nor you had the power to change it from LRT to Subway but perceptions changed and plans changed. Based on your own actions I thought it was acceptable to fight a project until shovels are in the ground. Just ignore me if it bothers you so much. All I am stating is an opinion. Plans changed once and plans can change again. Or now that your preferred plan is in the lead everyone else should just accept it?
 
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when the RT conversion to LRT was universally accepted to be built there were a number of people on here, yourself, onecity, coffee1 and more whom didn't accept it and argued and argued and argued. Now I am not saying they nor you had the power to change it from LRT to Subway but perceptions changed and plans changed. Based on your own actions I thought it was acceptable to fight a project until shovels are in the ground. Just ignore me if it bothers you so much. All I am stating is an opinion. Plans changed once and plans can change again. Or now that your preferred plan is in the lead everyone else should just accept it?

They are hiding the costs of this project for a reason. If I was in favour of this line I would be worried.

That being said that's no reason to shout down the critics.
 
Although it may be true from a short-term fiscal interpretation, what about the long-term? Sure, a huge development comes up, then, what next? You have to tunnel deep underground for any sort of rapid transit to exist. The line becomes so expensive, it doesn't get built and everyone is forced onto cars, surface transit, etc, and all hell breaks loose.

This is what's happening in Liberty Village, the Humber bay shores, etc. They built a crap ton of buildings without any means of transporting people around the city. Had they built a cut-and-cover subway line before all the buildings went up, these issues wouldn't be hurting the city. It's also not just Humber, but also the East Bayfront, the entirety of the DRL corridor, etc. Since downtown Toronto is running out of room for high rise buildings, condo builders, investors, institutional and commercial developers, and city dwellers are turning to areas like Downtown Mississauga, Vaughan City Centre, Sheppard-Yonge/North York Centre, Scarborough City Centre, Eglinton Avenue, Richmond Hill, etc to live and develop. There was an opportunity to build in an area that would see development (Sheppard) and they built there. Was it the right decision at the time? Probably not, but crowding issues weren't insane back then.

To your point about Toronto stopping building subways in high-density urban areas, that is because back then, the subway downtown had plenty of capacity to be utilized, and the only way to bring people to use the downtown subways was to expand in the suburbs. This is what they did, development ensued, ridership grew, hubs were established, the city was working fine. The great system was so great, people neglected it. One day, the system fell apart, ridership grew to a point where the downtown subways became inadequate, infrastructure was falling apart, and people were sad. There were only a limited number of construction workers to fix things, but with all the development in Toronto occurring, they became even more scarce, and, therefore, more expensive. Labour laws came in, development got in the way of expansion, and prices skyrocket to a point where it becomes infeasible to do much with the system.

The same thing is happening with the SSE. They built the ICTS that had enough capacity for the usage at the time, it was fast and efficient, people were kind of happy, the end. Then, it was neglected, people in Scarborough got no transit expansion for 40 years, the infrastructure failed, ridership was sky high because of all the development in and around the line, etc. To fix it, you have to pay a lot of money to do so, and the nature of the project limits it to either running underground or in a corridor that people are trying to use to build RER. It's an extremely complicated process that's not solely based on a capital figure. Just like Downtown, Scarborough has a transit problem. It may not be as severe as d0wntown's, but it shouldn't be neglected.

The DRL has been on the drawing boards for many decades. 'Back then' the DRL was seen as something that should've been built in relatively short order. Projections for growth along Sheppard and Eglinton haven't come close to what they thought it would back in 1985 when the Network 2011 plan was approved. They have (and more) downtown.

If King had a subway line things would be a lot less congested in Liberty Village. If subway construction was focused where it's needed and designed for then downtown would have far fewer issues. Great example.

In any case, this is about the SSE. Tory refuses to reveal the updated cost and there is no plan to keep it above ground.

What's next?
 
I don't why subway advocates are supposed to keep our mouths shut on this forum despite near universal acceptance that the subway is coming and is happening yet the same couple of guys are posting their pro-LRT propaganda ad nauseam 24/7 it seems.

The city has yet to put out a RFP for the extension. In fact, recently, they have back peddled. All we really know is that the current SRT is to be replaced with something. We don't know what, or even when. So, until that happens, the Subway/LRT debate will continue.
 
It really depends on how each project is executed, and we have almost no information on how the LRT would be run.
I don't really think there is any mystery to how the LRT would operate. Kennedy to McCowan (or Malvern). If there is any unknowns, its the Subway since I don't think we're even sure if the all the trains will actually proceed to STC or if trains will be turned back at Kennedy.
 
I don't really think there is any mystery to how the LRT would operate. Kennedy to McCowan (or Malvern). If there is any unknowns, its the Subway since I don't think we're even sure if the all the trains will actually proceed to STC or if trains will be turned back at Kennedy.

I believe for the first few years (at the very least) a percentage of trains would be short-turned.
 
This exact type of article should be in the other thread.

Especially when the Toronto Star chooses headlines that are so alarmist, obstructionist and counterproductive.

Heavens forbid what they'll write if DRL Long winds up costing 4-5 times as much as SSE.
 
The DRL has been on the drawing boards for many decades. 'Back then' the DRL was seen as something that should've been built in relatively short order. Projections for growth along Sheppard and Eglinton haven't come close to what they thought it would back in 1985 when the Network 2011 plan was approved. They have (and more) downtown.

If King had a subway line things would be a lot less congested in Liberty Village. If subway construction was focused where it's needed and designed for then downtown would have far fewer issues. Great example.

In any case, this is about the SSE. Tory refuses to reveal the updated cost and there is no plan to keep it above ground.

What's next?

Except now the subway is being planned for Queen. Quite frankly, little to no work has been done on the DRL either, and a lot needs to be done on all projects for any sort of building to occur.

The city has yet to put out a RFP for the extension. In fact, recently, they have back peddled. All we really know is that the current SRT is to be replaced with something. We don't know what, or even when. So, until that happens, the Subway/LRT debate will continue.

I, along with many others here would be happy to debate the merits of a scarborough subway extension, but as has been pointed out at least 50 times in this forum, can we please limit that debate to the "Debate The Merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension" Thread"?

I don't really think there is any mystery to how the LRT would operate. Kennedy to McCowan (or Malvern). If there is any unknowns, its the Subway since I don't think we're even sure if the all the trains will actually proceed to STC or if trains will be turned back at Kennedy.

The LRT has a lot of variability around it. Aside from where it would actually run (considering the challenges of the current alignment), we don't know if trains would interline with the Eglinton Crosstown, whether the transfer remains as terrible as it currently is, the cost of building goes up twofold, what rolling stock the line will use, whether stops can be skipped (ie, the surface LRTs being built in the city), how much line operations will cost, etc. We know that with the SSE, the trains would be based out of Greenwood and would run basically as the current BD line's rolling stock would in 202x, and that about half the trains are likely to be turned back at Kennedy for operation's purposes and because of limited space at the Greenwood yard. It's hard to make a case for an LRT line when there's no information on how the line would run (and quite frankly, the city really should be looking at an LRT alignment and it's operations in case costs surpass the budget).
 

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