Cobra
Senior Member
I can confirm it. Trains are full during rush hour.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
Again, Shepard looks busy since the capacity provided by the TTC is far below that of other subway lines. It's roughly 1/4 the capacity of the Yonge line from what I remember.
If the TTC would just release some updated subway ridership numbers, we could know.
If the TTC would just release some updated subway ridership numbers, we could know.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
It is a 5.5 km line. Of course it's going to have fewer riders than the 20 km Yonge line that has plenty more crosstown routes and 3 subway lines (BD, Sheppard, University) feeding into it. The important statistic is ridership per kilometer.
It theoretically can have the same capacity as the Yonge subway, but currently, the train comes half as often and with 2/3 the space. Therefore, it actually has 1/3 the capacity, and considering that the line is less than 1/3 the Yonge subway and has almost no connections, it's doing fairly well. If ridership has increased to, let's say, 70K passengers per day over the past 4 years. It's highly unlikely, but from the looks of things, I'd say an extra 10K commuting passengers isn't too far fetched. Over a course of 5.5 km, is about 12,700 PPDPkm. Compare that to the Bloor Danforth subway which is around 16,700 PPDPkm, for a stub, that's incredible.
syn
Senior Member
The area is not getting intensified because building a subway does not guarantee development. History has demonstrated this time and time again. Aside from zoning issues, getting such areas developed (with subway suitable, high density development) at this point just isn't worth it for developers, subway or not.
This is why it's best to wait until an area demonstrates it can actually accommodate a subway before building one. Toronto stopped building subways in high density urban areas half a century ago, instead focusing on suburban expansion. The result is a crippled system.
What's the trend with the SSE? Every time there's an update it's either a cut in the number of stations, or a dramatic price increase. I expect another increase when they reach the next design stage. All this for an extension that won't have enough riders to justify it's existence, lowers transit access compared to the current line in place, and does nothing to address critical issues the system faces.
I'd love to see them decide to put this thing entirely above ground, but at this point they seem intent on burying it.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Although it may be true from a short-term fiscal interpretation, what about the long-term? Sure, a huge development comes up, then, what next? You have to tunnel deep underground for any sort of rapid transit to exist. The line becomes so expensive, it doesn't get built and everyone is forced onto cars, surface transit, etc, and all hell breaks loose.
This is what's happening in Liberty Village, the Humber bay shores, etc. They built a crap ton of buildings without any means of transporting people around the city. Had they built a cut-and-cover subway line before all the buildings went up, these issues wouldn't be hurting the city. It's also not just Humber, but also the East Bayfront, the entirety of the DRL corridor, etc. Since downtown Toronto is running out of room for high rise buildings, condo builders, investors, institutional and commercial developers, and city dwellers are turning to areas like Downtown Mississauga, Vaughan City Centre, Sheppard-Yonge/North York Centre, Scarborough City Centre, Eglinton Avenue, Richmond Hill, etc to live and develop. There was an opportunity to build in an area that would see development (Sheppard) and they built there. Was it the right decision at the time? Probably not, but crowding issues weren't insane back then.
To your point about Toronto stopping building subways in high-density urban areas, that is because back then, the subway downtown had plenty of capacity to be utilized, and the only way to bring people to use the downtown subways was to expand in the suburbs. This is what they did, development ensued, ridership grew, hubs were established, the city was working fine. The great system was so great, people neglected it. One day, the system fell apart, ridership grew to a point where the downtown subways became inadequate, infrastructure was falling apart, and people were sad. There were only a limited number of construction workers to fix things, but with all the development in Toronto occurring, they became even more scarce, and, therefore, more expensive. Labour laws came in, development got in the way of expansion, and prices skyrocket to a point where it becomes infeasible to do much with the system.
The same thing is happening with the SSE. They built the ICTS that had enough capacity for the usage at the time, it was fast and efficient, people were kind of happy, the end. Then, it was neglected, people in Scarborough got no transit expansion for 40 years, the infrastructure failed, ridership was sky high because of all the development in and around the line, etc. To fix it, you have to pay a lot of money to do so, and the nature of the project limits it to either running underground or in a corridor that people are trying to use to build RER. It's an extremely complicated process that's not solely based on a capital figure. Just like Downtown, Scarborough has a transit problem. It may not be as severe as d0wntown's, but it shouldn't be neglected.
sixrings
Senior Member
As a former Scarborough resident I thought the SELRT, Eglinton East Malvern LRT and RT conversion to LRT was never neglecting Scarborough. In fact if that Finch LRT was a crosstown as well Id really consider moving back to where I grew up. That said Scarborough has decided that Sheppard wasn't a Subway so it wasn't good enough. The RT conversion wasn't a subway so it too wasn't good enough. Eglinton East didn't get that much backlash but that money has been being eaten up by the Subway extension. Basically if shovels went in the ground and there wasn't any complaints Scarborough could have had 24 stops on Sheppard, 17 stops on Eglinton, and at minimum the 5 stops on the RT line.... So that is 46 stops. Instead what we are getting is 1 Subway stop for the same price. Like you said we live in a democracy but there is a lot of goal post moving to make this one subway stop in Scarborough look worth it.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Planners should identify reserved right-of-ways and supporting features for future transitways. And politicians should require them. When a project is built, then the transit can be provided.
BurlOak
Senior Member
Scarborough has like a Thousand bus stops. Would an additional 46 stops make that big a difference?
steveintoronto
Superstar
By that reasoning, one subway stop makes even less sense.
sixrings
Senior Member
Tell that to Ottawa, Hamilton, Hurontario, Kitchener... I will admit a LRT is not as good as a subway at SPEED.. But it has so many advantages over bus. It would be faster than a bus. It is in its own lane. It is a smoother ride. It has less stops.
The way some people think on here about transit and SUBWAYS SUBWAYS SUBWAYS is the way I thought about buying my first car when I was a teenager. I thought it was Mercedes or bust.. But really I wanted a porsche. If everyone actually applied that logic there would be virtually no cars on the road. LRT is a great compromise especially on routes that don't have the ridership. Many things may have frustrated me about TC but the word NETWORK was not one of them. In order to have a network you need as many lines as possible. As many stops as possible. Not spending every last dime on one stop.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
I don't why subway advocates are supposed to keep our mouths shut on this forum despite near universal acceptance that the subway is coming and is happening yet the same couple of guys are posting their pro-LRT propaganda ad nauseam 24/7 it seems.
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
Maybe a title change of the thread (again) to remove the '(formerly LRT replacement)' will make it clear that this thread is for news about the Scarborough Subway Extension. If anyone wants to debate about LRT vs Subway, there's a clear thread designated for that, especially news articles that displays new facts about the SSE evaluation being flawed: Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension
raptor
Senior Member
1. You are welcome to state your opinions in the other thread.
2. The so-called acceptance that the subway is coming is very far from universal. You are in a minority.
3. The subway is not coming, at least not in its present form.
sixrings
Senior Member
I didn't tell you to keep your mouth shut. I don't live in scarborough anymore so I really don't care what happens there but I do object that this plan makes objective sense nor can I take the narrative that LRTS have no benefits over busses. The later nonsense really frusterates me as it leads to conversations about busses in hyrdo corridors for finch west and or subway subways subways. The former bothers me because we don't have a unlimted transit money tree to fund these dreams yet alone priorities so wasting money effects everyone
Hopkins123
Senior Member
Don't look at me, look at Sixrings and syn.