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TTC: Scarborough Subway Extension (formerly LRT replacement) (City of Toronto, Design Phase)

micheal_can

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Its not just budget. Its risk. There is an expectation of safety that is on a civilian transit system that is not expected in the military. You can't just MacGyver and hack parts together on a public transit system like you can in the military. There are wayyyyyy stricter standards etc for a public transit system, and I know what you will reply with "the military has strict standards too" and, they do, but nothing near what is required for the TTC and GO.

People join the military with an expected understanding that there is risks involved with such a job. People do not go on a transit system expecting the same level of risk.

It isn't MacGyvered when it is made using the blueprints. The problem is, the ships we had just a few years ago, some of them were older than 40 years old.

 

smallspy

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You are a funny person if you think the Canadian military has an almost infinite budget. We aren't the USA.
While there was more than a little bit of sarcasm in my statement, the truth is that there is more than a bit of reality to it, too.

The TTC, and other transit agencies too, do many bespoke parts all of the time. The problem is that from a cost-benefit point, it is hugely resource intensive to do so, and so the agencies are far better served to buy off-the-shelf as much as possible. And sure, there is also a safety implication to it too.

While the above is absolutely applicable for the military, the equipment that they are buying is highly customized and for which off-the-shelf is usually not usually an option. Thus, there is always going to be the expectation that some amount of in-house fabrication is going to be needed over the lifetime of the equipment to keep it operable. And that's not even going into the long, storied tradition that the military has of make-do-and-mend on the battlefield and away from home, which results in even more customization and specialization to the equipment. Doing that in a transit sense is often seen as a detriment, not a positive.

Dan
 

micheal_can

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While there was more than a little bit of sarcasm in my statement, the truth is that there is more than a bit of reality to it, too.

The TTC, and other transit agencies too, do many bespoke parts all of the time. The problem is that from a cost-benefit point, it is hugely resource intensive to do so, and so the agencies are far better served to buy off-the-shelf as much as possible. And sure, there is also a safety implication to it too.

While the above is absolutely applicable for the military, the equipment that they are buying is highly customized and for which off-the-shelf is usually not usually an option. Thus, there is always going to be the expectation that some amount of in-house fabrication is going to be needed over the lifetime of the equipment to keep it operable. And that's not even going into the long, storied tradition that the military has of make-do-and-mend on the battlefield and away from home, which results in even more customization and specialization to the equipment. Doing that in a transit sense is often seen as a detriment, not a positive.

Dan

We are making the parts,, not because the part is special. We make them because it is too old for the original manufacturer to produce it.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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We are making the parts,, not because the part is special. We make them because it is too old for the original manufacturer to produce it.
They have been doing that with the SRT but ther are some parts that can't be made anymore or sourced like all of the 1980's computer parts. The TTC also did that with parts for the CLRV's and ALRV's too they actually used to have a full-time blacksmith working for them.
 

smallspy

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We are making the parts,, not because the part is special. We make them because it is too old for the original manufacturer to produce it.
It's both.

What do you think is a better use of time - buying an installing an off-the-shelf part and installing it, or having to make one?

This is why older transit vehicles get retired when they do - the parts become hard to come by and in some cases need to get made. Take, for instance, the CLRVs - sure, they could have kept them running for a couple more years. But they are now so old that most of the OEMs don't build the parts used in them anymore, and so the TTC has to either build new parts to fix them, or modify different parts to fit. And that still takes time and effort to do.

Going back to the military analogy, there is absolutely a case where they will absolutely bolt up direct replacements - where direct replacements exist and are available. But if you're in the middle of Afganistan or Serbia, and you don't know when those replacements will arrive but you have something else which may work, then you make-do-and-mend.

Dan
 

micheal_can

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It's both.

What do you think is a better use of time - buying an installing an off-the-shelf part and installing it, or having to make one?

This is why older transit vehicles get retired when they do - the parts become hard to come by and in some cases need to get made. Take, for instance, the CLRVs - sure, they could have kept them running for a couple more years. But they are now so old that most of the OEMs don't build the parts used in them anymore, and so the TTC has to either build new parts to fix them, or modify different parts to fit. And that still takes time and effort to do.

Going back to the military analogy, there is absolutely a case where they will absolutely bolt up direct replacements - where direct replacements exist and are available. But if you're in the middle of Afganistan or Serbia, and you don't know when those replacements will arrive but you have something else which may work, then you make-do-and-mend.

Dan
Actually, they bring spare parts to Afghanistan or anywhere else that has a Forward Operating Base (FOB)
 

W. K. Lis

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Will the Greenwood Yard, in its current configuration, track layout, and real estate, be able to support the extra trains needed for the extension? Will this mean that the (former CPR) Obico Yard be needed by the target date of the Line 2 extension (2030+)?
 

toronto647

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Out of curiosity what are the chances in the event Ford loses the elections next June that this project either gets cancelled? or gets altered to become above ground? My guess is it remains as is since tunnel boring machines will be well advanced by the middle of next year. Thoughts on this?
 

kamira51

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Finally a positive story by TVO

Absolutely horrible idea.
Out of curiosity what are the chances in the event Ford loses the elections next June that this project either gets cancelled? or gets altered to become above ground? My guess is it remains as is since tunnel boring machines will be well advanced by the middle of next year. Thoughts on this?
If he keeps his mouth shut, he will most likely be re-elected.
 

rbt

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If he keeps his mouth shut, he will most likely be re-elected.

He's in a bit of a pickle. Polls have the Cons in a minority government position at the moment, and I don't imagine the election debates will be kind to Ford. To get a majority Ford isn't going to be able to stay silent. Ford going off a carefully crafted message is likely to benefit the Liberals.


IMO, Ford needs to be boosting Horwath at every opportunity.

I hope the Ontario election stock market opens in a few months https://predictionmarkets.ca .
 
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micheal_can

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Finally a positive story by TVO


Lower numbers is the best time to do it. Then when those numbers come back, the system can handle them.

He's in a bit of a pickle. Polls have the Cons in a minority government position at the moment, and I don't imagine the election debates will be kind to Ford. To get a majority Ford isn't going to be able to stay silent. Ford going off a carefully crafted message is likely to benefit the Liberals.


IMO, Ford needs to be boosting Horwath at every opportunity.

I hope the Ontario election stock market opens in a few months https://predictionmarkets.ca .

The good thing is, I doubt any of the other parties want to cancel subway and LRT construction within Toronto.
 

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