Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[pstogios]

It must be great being a councillor in Scarborough. You don't have to take responsibility for anything that goes wrong - just blame on 'dowtown'. It's too bad a lot of Scarborough residents can't hold their own councillors responsible for the state of their area, including the lack of transit. Scarborough's problems are largely the result of decisions made by Scarborough politicians over the course of decades.

Exactly.

It must be pretty awesome being a Scarborough councillor that represents residents that are so totally out to lunch that they can be fooled by pretty much anything you tell them.

Just imagine. Scarborough has residents like coffey1 that believe that just because it is large in area, but not in population or in population density, then it “deserves” the same level of transit infrastructure as areas of downtown with triple the population in a smaller area. He chose to live in an area with less transit, as appropriate for its density and historical population and built form, and now he bitches about his commute.

It’s like saying Caledon (population 66592, 688 square km in area) “deserves” the same level of transit infrastructure and investment as Mississauga (population 721599, 292 square km in area). And then make up some bullshit conspiracy that Mississauga politicians, residents AND the media are ALL out “to get” Caledonians. That’s Trump level psychosis.

Don’t live in Caledon and then bitch about transit.

The degree of delusion is mind-blowing.

No wonder Mississauga wants to separate from Peel Region... I say Scarborough should separate from Toronto and leave the rest of us alone.

 

[Hopkins123]

It must be great being a councilor in Scarborough. You don't have to take responsibility for anything that goes wrong - just blame on 'dowtown'. It's too bad a lot of Scarborough residents can't hold their own councilors responsible for the state of their area, including the lack of transit. Scarborough's problems are largely the result of decisions made by Scarborough politicians over the course of decades.

Hopefully Scarborough councilors will be honest with the constituents and what will be necessary is they want a subway in a low density suburb.

Yes, because close to 700,000 residents is so low density. Funny @pstogios mentions Caledon, you two must presume there's like 2 people/km2 out there.

Look, Old Toronto is also 700,000 residents. Just because it's a smaller surface area doesn't mean it's any more deserving of a subway. One line out to eastern limits would actually benefit not just Scarborough, but Markham and Pickering as well - that's over a million people; same way subways downtown benefit the surrounding suburbs as well. Kennedy and Eglinton just doesn't provide enough coverage to make a dent inwards into the East End to help many. This is why Malvern, Mornigside Heights, West Hill and Port Union are still an hour from the nearest rapid transit.

A subway to McCowan and Sheppard cuts all those travel times in half, it's a sound investment. FFS, please let this be the last election cycle we're even still debating this garbage. We ought to be more like Montreal in this regard where like 5 subway/premetro projects are under the works as we speak.

 

[JSF-1]

Rob Ford agreed to connect the Crosstown underground then above ground seamless on old RT alignment. Council rejected. Tory did a cost analysis of the RT corridor BDL and it wasnt that much savings. Although It would have been a good compromise in my view. I believe the Conservative are reviewing how the Lawrence stop is designed but we'll see if they can find any solutions that will save significant dollars.

Also that Councillor 'chirping' resided in Scarborough and supported constitutions with first hand experience suffering with the issues with the above ground RT line has been nothing short of a disaster in the winter. Im not saying the LRT or subway wouldn't above ground would have the same issue, but i completely get the reasoning after decades of nonsense. Underground removes this concern completely, hardly unreasonable to many people actually using transit here. Yet, most politicians chirping agaisnt this all have underground transit stops in their far away, out of touch wards.

Most of those same residence already take the Bloor-Danforth to work and on there commute they will pass through the above ground section between Warden and Victoria Park. They know what an above ground subway is, and to compare that to the RT is both disingenuous and makes it sound like those people are idiots who can't tell the difference between the RT and the Subway. The fact is Scarborough has had an above ground subway for 51 years, we know what it is, we know how it works, the chirping from that one Scarborough Councillor is nothing more than feeding the everything must be underground BS.

 

[OneCity]

Most of those same residence already take the Bloor-Danforth to work and on there commute they will pass through the above ground section between Warden and Victoria Park. They know what an above ground subway is, and to compare that to the RT is both disingenuous and makes it sound like those people are idiots who can't tell the difference between the RT and the Subway. The fact is Scarborough has had an above ground subway for 51 years, we know what it is, we know how it works, the chirping from that one Scarborough Councillor is nothing more than feeding the everything must be underground BS.

Those sections are only reliable due to the high speeds the train runs at. Again, i don't disagree that it can be designed more reliable but the reality is there is a big issue with the RT being above ground. This is not longer an issues, so thankfully no need to wonder. And again his concer is a zillion times more valid then some politician ranting in his ward campaign in a far away subway filled riding

Yes, because close to 700,000 residents is so low density. Funny @pstogios mentions Caledon, you two must presume there's like 2 people/km2 out there.

Look, Old Toronto is also 700,000 residents. Just because it's a smaller surface area doesn't mean it's any more deserving of a subway. One line out to eastern limits would actually benefit not just Scarborough, but Markham and Pickering as well - that's over a million people; same way subways downtown benefit the surrounding suburbs as well. Kennedy and Eglinton just doesn't provide enough coverage to make a dent inwards into the East End to help many. This is why Malvern, Mornigside Heights, West Hill and Port Union are still an hour from the nearest rapid transit.

A subway to McCowan and Sheppard cuts all those travel times in half, it's a sound investment. FFS, please let this be the last election cycle we're even still debating this garbage. We ought to be more like Montreal in this regard where like 5 subway/premetro projects are under the works as we speak.

It's done. The debate was over long ago, but only now outside politicians in the City can no longer meddle. It will be interesting to see if the worst offenders can campaign strictly on their own ward issues again in the next election or if they'll find another unhelpful dividing narrative and continue to sidetrack the City again from moving forward. So long as Sheppard resides at the Provincial level now, we should be safe from this nonsense happening again atleast at this level. It was surely coming as the next absurd battle to regress the City if the Province didn't intervene

 

[syn]

Yes, because close to 700,000 residents is so low density.

Look, Old Toronto is also 700,000 residents.

Those are population totals, not density figures.

You didn't even get them correct. Scarborough's population was 632,098 in the 2016 census. Old Toronto's population was 797,642.

doesn't mean it's any more deserving of a subway

It has nothing to do with 'deserving'.

 

[Hopkins123]

Those are population totals, not density figures.

You didn't even get them correct. Scarborough's population was 632,098 in the 2106 census. Old Toronto's population was 797,642.



It has nothing to do with 'deserving'.

Missing my point, as per usual. You should see the places where Montreal is planning to build subways and the REM. Their population densities make Scarborough Centre look like downtown Manhattan by contrast. Why does Montreal have their shit together, but we don't? Because the opposition to their initiatives is nowhere near as vocal and acrimonious as Toronto's anti-subway lobby whom have spent the better part of the last decade telling everyone and their mother that building subway extensions is stupid. You've poisoned the well and just given politicians excuses not to do anything as not to offend anyone. Congrats!

 

[44 North]

Shutting down a 34 year old rapid transit line in a low demand area and replacing it with an underground subway was a dumb idea in the first place, so yes that rhetoric seems fairly reasonable to me. Meanwhile the DRL, planned in the highest demand area, got replaced by a lower capacity line for no good reason. Anyone who looks at that and concludes that Scarborough is being mistreated is living in a fantasy world.

It's pretty high demand with lots of high density pockets, but agreed with the other points. My hope if that we can salvage a good portion of Line 3's E-W corridor for something Sheppard related. Or that Schabas will bring back his Scarboro Wye fantasy, since Metrolinx is paying him a pretty penny to scheme away in a room somewhere.

Missing my point, as per usual. You should see the places where Montreal is planning to build subways and the REM. Their population densities make Scarborough Centre look like downtown Manhattan by contrast. Why does Montreal have their shit together, but we don't? Because the opposition to their initiatives is nowhere near as vocal and acrimonious as Toronto's anti-subway lobby whom have spent the better part of the last decade telling everyone and their mother that building subway extensions is stupid. You've poisoned the well and just given politicians excuses not to do anything as not to offend anyone. Congrats!

This is stupid. Line 3 is a subway, and its upgrade/extension would be subway too. Those who are opposed to SSE support a Scarb Subway, rather a Line 3 one vs a Line 2 one. They're both subways - one an extension one a standalone. Feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Also OneCity is becoming increasingly annoying. Feel like every page I click on related to the east half of the city I'm met with the same demented copy paste rant. Page after page after age. If those who were opposed supported nothing, yes by all means rant. But to erroneously paint people as if they oppose transit, oppose infrastructure, oppose spending, etc. Might be time to give it a rest.

 

[BurlOak]

It's pretty high demand with lots of high density pockets, but agreed with the other points. My hope if that we can salvage a good portion of Line 3's E-W corridor for something Sheppard related. Or that Schabas will bring back his Scarboro Wye fantasy, since Metrolinx is paying him a pretty penny to scheme away in a room somewhere.

The boat sailed on the Scarborough Wye when they built the Leslie to Kennedy portion on-street.
The only way to save the concept is to have a whole new subway line go through STC, along with a converted Sheppard.
something like this (although technically I have 4 tracks through STC - partly for added capacity and partly due to construction sequence).

This is stupid. Line 3 is a subway, and its upgrade/extension would be subway too. Those who are opposed to SSE support a Scarb Subway, rather a Line 3 one vs a Line 2 one. They're both subways - one an extension one a standalone. Feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Line 3 = Sheppard. Line 2 = Bloor. I had to look that up. Now I understand what you are getting at.
As I see it, the problem is that the Sheppard Line does not hit close enough to the demand nodes of downtown. The problem with the B-D Line is that it does not hit close enough to the demand nodes of downtown. The problem with the Transit City Transfer LRT proposal is that it forced riders onto the B-D Line, which does not hit close enough to the demand nodes of downtown.
The combined Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown (with a DRL extension), or my above sketch, would indeed solve the problem.
Physically too late for the first solution.
Politically too late for the second solution.

Also OneCity is becoming increasingly annoying. Feel like every page I click on related to the east half of the city I'm met with the same demented copy paste rant. Page after page after age. If those who were opposed supported nothing, yes by all means rant. But to erroneously paint people as if they oppose transit, oppose infrastructure, oppose spending, etc. Might be time to give it a rest.

Of course he talks about the east half of the City in a "Scarborough" thread.

 

[syn]

Missing my point, as per usual. You should see the places where Montreal is planning to build subways and the REM. Their population densities make Scarborough Centre look like downtown Manhattan by contrast. Why does Montreal have their shit together, but we don't? Because the opposition to their initiatives is nowhere near as vocal and acrimonious as Toronto's anti-subway lobby whom have spent the better part of the last decade telling everyone and their mother that building subway extensions is stupid. You've poisoned the well and just given politicians excuses not to do anything as not to offend anyone. Congrats!

The point is that you consistently ignore context, misuse terms, make things up or outright get your "facts" wrong. This is another perfect example.

REM is an LRT network consisting of above ground, elevated and underground sections. In fact, only 5 of the stations on the network are underground. The Eglinton LRT alone has more underground stops than that. It's one of the few remaining lines from Toronto's planned large scale LRT network with elevated, above ground and underground sections - Transit City. It was canceled by the opposition that you support - the Fords. If it weren't for him, we'd be way ahead in building our own REM, one significantly larger too. A lot of us, including myself, have mentioned how transformative it would be to have an LRT network in Scarborough.

There is no anti-subway lobby. There's simply a lot of people who want to see transit dollars spent wisely based on actual need and context - not based on who 'deserves' them.

Line 3 = Sheppard. Line 2 = Bloor. I had to look that up. Now I understand what you are getting at.

Line 3 = Scarborough RT.

I believe what @44 North is getting at is that the Scarborough RT, for all intents and purposes, is a subway line. It may not offer the same capacity, but it certainly offers speed and efficiency. The RT has much more in common with the subway than it does with a streetcar line. For me transferring at Kennedy to go north to STC is no different than transferring at Bloor-Yonge to get to Yonge & Eglinton.

 

[BurlOak]

The point is that you consistently ignore context, misuse terms, make things up or outright get your "facts" wrong. This is another perfect example.

REM is an LRT network consisting of above ground, elevated and underground sections. In fact, only 5 of the stations on the network are underground. The Eglinton LRT alone has more underground stops than that. It's one of the few remaining lines from Toronto's planned large scale LRT network with elevated, above ground and underground sections - Transit City. It was canceled by the opposition that you support - the Fords. If it weren't for him, we'd be way ahead in building our own REM, one significantly larger too. A lot of us, including myself, have mentioned how transformative it would be to have an LRT network in Scarborough.

Let me get this straight.

• Eglinton Crosstown has 15 grade-separated Stations and 10 on-street stops.
• Meanwhile, REM as 26 grade-separated stations.

and you accuse others of distorting facts.

Line 3 = Scarborough RT.
I believe what @44 North is getting at is that the Scarborough RT, for all intents and purposes, is a subway line. It may not offer the same capacity, but it certainly offers speed and efficiency. The RT has much more in common with the subway than it does with a streetcar line. For me transferring at Kennedy to go north to STC is no different than transferring at Bloor-Yonge to get to Yonge & Eglinton.

{Man, whoever came up with that illogical Line numbering should be tarred and feathered. It does seem that if I use B-D or YUS there is no confusion, but with numbering, nobody knows whats going on}

• When they extend the B-D Line to STC, then transferring to the Eglinton Line would be the same as transferring at Y-B from Yonge to Bloor.
• If they extend the B-D Line along Eglinton to Kingston Road, then transferring to the SRT Line would be the same as transferring at Y-B from Yonge to Bloor.
• Currently, it's more like if you would have to transfer at Y-E from the Yonge South Line to the Yonge North Line.

I agree that the SRT is a subway - but unfortunately a stubway. If they would have extended it downtown, or at least to the spine (Yonge) of Toronto, then there would not have been the complaints. As I recall, this was proposed by Metrolinx, and agreed to by Ford. Unfortunately, the Liberals killed their own subway plan just to defeat Ford. Basically, for the Liberals, Councillors, and much of the progressive voters, it was a case where they were willing to get rid of Ford at any cost, and we must now pay that cost.

 

[Hopkins123]

The point is that you consistently ignore context, misuse terms, make things up or outright get your "facts" wrong. This is another perfect example.

REM is an LRT network consisting of above ground, elevated and underground sections. In fact, only 5 of the stations on the network are underground. The Eglinton LRT alone has more underground stops than that. It's one of the few remaining lines from Toronto's planned large scale LRT network with elevated, above ground and underground sections - Transit City. It was canceled by the opposition that you support - the Fords. If it weren't for him, we'd be way ahead in building our own REM, one significantly larger too. A lot of us, including myself, have mentioned how transformative it would be to have an LRT network in Scarborough.

There is no anti-subway lobby. There's simply a lot of people who want to see transit dollars spent wisely based on actual need and context - not based on who 'deserves' them.



Line 3 = Scarborough RT.

I believe what @44 North is getting at is that the Scarborough RT, for all intents and purposes, is a subway line. It may not offer the same capacity, but it certainly offers speed and efficiency. The RT has much more in common with the subway than it does with a streetcar line. For me transferring at Kennedy to go north to STC is no different than transferring at Bloor-Yonge to get to Yonge & Eglinton.

REM is more like a subway than a LRT, it's fully grade-separated for one. Eglinton Crosstown meanwhile has a vast at-grade road-median section from Brentcliffe to Kennedy the Fords desperately tried to avoid but anti-subway critics in government like John Parker and Josh Matlow opposed. Sorry if you think that I'm making this up.

And you still haven't told me how the Blue Line extension to Anjou, and Orange Line to Bois Franc (if not all the way northwest into Laval), etc. aren't prime examples of Montreal still to this day continuing their legacy network of subways further into the suburbs.

Montreal is building everything, all modes, even a tramway from Lachine to Pointe Aux Trembles. There isn't this bipolar obsession with one mode or another like here in Toronto.

 

[syn]

agree that the SRT is a subway - but unfortunately a stubway. If they would have extended it downtown, or at least to the spine (Yonge) of Toronto, then there would not have been the complaints. As I recall, this was proposed by Metrolinx, and agreed to by Ford. Unfortunately, the Liberals killed their own subway plan just to defeat Ford. Basically, for the Liberals, Councillors, and much of the progressive voters, it was a case where they were willing to get rid of Ford at any cost, and we must now pay that cost.

You recall incorrectly. Ford wanted to cancel everything else, sink everything into the LRT and make the city responsible for all cost overruns, which based on the planning at the time was likely going to be in the billions.

Complain all you'd like about progressives, but the three major transit projects under construction and completed right now are from the Miller era - the Spadina subway extension, Eglinton and Finch LRTs. Most of this was planned, funded and ready to go. A decade of conservative mayors has resulted in progress grinding to a halt.

REM is more like a subway than a LRT, it's fully grade-separated for one. Eglinton Crosstown meanwhile has a vast at-grade road-median section from Brentcliffe to Kennedy the Fords desperately tried to avoid but anti-subway critics in government like John Parker and Josh Matlow opposed. Sorry if you think that I'm making this up.

And you still haven't told me how the Blue Line extension to Anjou, and Orange Line to Bois Franc (if not all the way northwest into Laval), etc. aren't prime examples of Montreal still to this day continuing their legacy network of subways further into the suburbs.

Montreal is building everything, all modes, even a tramway from Lachine to Pointe Aux Trembles. There isn't this bipolar obsession with one mode or another like here in Toronto.

If you want to make comparisons, then REM is closer to GO than it is to TTC Subway or Transit City. One of the REM lines is actually going to be a converted Exo line.

What Scarborough needs for fast trips downtown is expanded GO service, not a subway extension.

Toronto hasn't built a subway station downtown for nearly half a century. All the expansion has been in the suburbs. It hasn't addressed the real issues.

As for expansion, the examples you give are incredibly misleading. The Blue Line extension isn't slated to being construction for years. The Orange Line extension isn't confirmed, it's in preliminary stages. It's like using the SSE, Ontario Line/DRL, Yonge Extension as examples of continuous suburban expansion.

As for 'building everything', Toronto just opened a suburban subway extension has the Eglinton LRT under construction and the Finch LRT in progress.

Montreal is a very misleading example.

 

[Rainforest]

In other words, both Toronto and Montreal have some projects for the core and some out-of-core expansion projects.

Therefore, by "syn" 's logic, Montreal is a bad example to use in a Toronto-centric discussion.

 

[sixrings]

In other words, both Toronto and Montreal have some projects for the core and some out-of-core expansion projects.

Therefore, by "syn" 's logic, Montreal is a bad example to use in a Toronto-centric discussion.

Montreal's suburbs are no where near as far as STC though. Unless I'm wrong Montreal is less spread out than Toronto.

 

[Rainforest]

Montreal's suburbs are no where near as far as STC though. Unless I'm wrong Montreal is less spread out than Toronto.

According to Wikipedia:
Toronto Line 1: 39 km (TYSSE included)
Toronto Line 2: 26 km
Montreal Orange Line: 30 km
Montreal Green Line: 22 km

So, Montreal lines are a bit shorter, but not much shorter.

Total area and population:
Toronto: 630 sq.km / 2.7 million / 4,300 per km
Montreal: 430 sq. km / 1.7 million / 3,900 per km

Actually, Toronto is a tiny bit more dense, but the two cities are certainly in the same category.