Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[asher__jo]

I feel like the whole transfer issue was somewhat blown out of proportion. With GO RER coming to Kennedy on the Stouffville line, I would suspect a significant chuck of riders would start to transfer onto GO at Kennedy regardless of whether or not their changing from the SRT or the SSE. Assuming a worst case scenario of a 15 minute wait for a GO train, it still takes about the same time to get to Union by GO versus the subway with the benefit of not having to deal with Bloor-Yonge.

Agreed. Many studies have shown one transfer does not deter ridership (with that transfer being fairly seemly of course).

 

[BurlOak]

Agreed. Many studies have shown one transfer does not deter ridership (with that transfer being fairly seemly of course).

Agree. Those from Scarborough (north of 401) have to take bus to SRT to D-B to Y-U to (maybe) streetcar.
1 transfer may not be a big deal, but 3 or 4 is.

 

[OneCity]

Agree. Those from Scarborough (north of 401) have to take bus to SRT to D-B to Y-U to (maybe) streetcar.
1 transfer may not be a big deal, but 3 or 4 is.

Similar to 'not all LRT designs are the same', 'not all transfers are the same'.

Having the transfer location at the Centre instead of before it was common sense for various reasons in addition to the inconvenience for those arriving at this MAIN destination Over 75% of RT rides either start or end at the Centre. Keeping in the mind the absurdity of the intermediate stops that are quite hidden/remote and many just bypass the RT all together I can only imagine once the Centre grows with the new plans surrounding the subway how it will become even more vital to the area in the decades that will follow. Better for the Centre and better for commuters.

Now the Sheppard LRT would have added a very unfortunate transfer for commuters here. For most it would be a bus to LRT to the stubway (for some all in a straight fairly short stretch). That was inexcusable local transit design without even considering the additional necessary impact to commuters with 1-2 hour commutes.

 

[sixrings]

Similar to not all LRT designs are the same not all transfers are the same.

Having the transfer location at the Centre instead of before it was common sense for various reasons in addition to the inconvenience for those arriving at this MAIN destination Over 75% of RT rides either start or end at the Centre. Keeping in the mind the absurdity of the intermediate stops that are quite hidden/remote and many just bypass the RT all together I can only imagine once the Centre grows with the new plans surrounding the subway how it will become even more vital to the area in the decades that will follow. Better for the Centre and better for commuters.

Now the Sheppard LRT would have added a very unfortunate transfer for commuters here. For most it would be a bus to LRT to the stubway (for some all in a straight fairly short stretch). That was inexcusable local transit design without even considering the additional necessary impact to commuters with 1-2 hour commutes.

Who really has a two hour commute in each direction. You really need to find a closer job to your place. Any of my friends from Scarborough who worked in the core earned enough money to take the GO or drive. The rest of the people worked at places like Eaton centre when just as easily they could have worked at STC. All the studies show most of the ridership in Scarborough is within Scarborough so I don't know why people are trying to perpetuate the myth of the poor Scarborough resident who spends four hours a day commuting. I'm not saying those people don't exist at all but it's the minority.

 

[syn]

Agree. Those from Scarborough (north of 401) have to take bus to SRT to D-B to Y-U to (maybe) streetcar.
1 transfer may not be a big deal, but 3 or 4 is.

The SSE doesn't change that. People are still going to be taking buses.

If you're north of the 401 there are other options than the RT line if you're trying to reach the subway - like Finch and Sheppard.

We know that only 23% of transit trips beginning in Scarborough end downtown. Of that 23% there are probably quite a few that aren't too far from a station of some sort.

What does that mean? The number of people with 4 or 10 or however many transfers is really quite small in the grand scheme of things. Their problem isn't a lack of subways, it's a lack of effective regional transit (GO).

 

[Hopkins123]

The biggest challenge with building transit in North America is that transit is used as a political tool, rather than as a way to move people around. Elsewhere in the world these debates aren't anywhere near as politically charged, and building a transit line is little more controversial than announcing a road repair program.

Metrolinx was supposed to de-politicize the whole thing, but with power in the Government of Ontario being as centralized and secretive as it is, Metrolinx was quickly co-opted as a PR mouthpiece of the Government of Ontario, rather than doing anything genuinely useful to get transit built in the GTHA, that couldn't have been accomplished without its existence.

I think de-centralizing Metrolinx might be a wise move. That means removing the Government of Ontario from the business of building transit, and turning Metrolinx into an independent non-profit corporation with taxation authority. It would be accountable to GTHA municipalities through its board of directors. That would put an end to the days of Metrolinx being PR fodder for the provincial government of the day. And with individual municipalities and governments being unable to control Metrolinx's agenda, the agency would be able to build transit, despite cries from its constituent municipalities or the provincial government.

But honestly, I don't even know that would work. There might not be a way to de-politicize this whole process. The political nature of this might just come down to cultural reasons. With North Americans being as individualistic as they are, I get the sense that people are more concerned with how transit benefits themselves personally, than with whether or not it benefits the city or region as a whole. If that's the case, then building transit will always be tremendously difficult; there are always winners and losers in this game of transit expansion.

Tell that to Montreal where seemingly everything is being proposed and much of which is actually coming to fruition. SSE can be built, if only the detractor class would get out of the way.

 

[Rainforest]

While it's true that trips from Scarborough to downtown make the minority of all trips, that's still the largest group of trips that can be helped by a single transit project (SSE). On the other hand, trips within Scarborough are so diverse that you can't improve any significant % of them by building 1 or 2 or 3 local lines.

Not to say that improvements to the local trips aren't needed; such improvements are useful, too, but not at the expense of the core-bound group.

Just look at the transit maps of other cities with 1M+ population. All of them have transit systems with backbones comprised of the radial trunk lines, connecting the suburbs with the core. No city decided to leave a large suburb without a single trunk line, telling the residents to find a job closer to home and stick to their own area.

 

[syn]

Tell that to Montreal where seemingly everything is being proposed and much of which is actually coming to fruition. SSE can be built, if only the detractor class would get out of the way.

Toronto has a pro-SSE mayor, and apparently Scarborough has the supposed SSE proponent they wanted as Premier.

Can't blame detractors for the fact that Ford has delayed the project yet again.

 

[narduch]

Tell that to Montreal where seemingly everything is being proposed and much of which is actually coming to fruition. SSE can be built, if only the detractor class would get out of the way.

The 'detractor class' isn't the problem.

It's your idiot Premier who has delayed this project indefinitely

 

[TheTigerMaster]

People in this thread are being too dismissive of the potential of BRT. They are not an inferior form of rapid transit. BRT when designed well can easily compete and exceed LRT in speed, capacity, passenger comfort, and affordability, and it does in many places worldwide. Comparing our dinky bus routes to a rail vehicle that exists in its own ROW is a complete apples-to-oranges comparison.

The problem is that we do things for cheap in Toronto, and the BRT that we would build would likely not meet international BRT best practices.

The single biggest thing we could do to fix Scarborough transit is build the DRL North and a network of BRTs on Lawrence, Ellesmere and Sheppard to feed the line. The second biggest thing we could do is make GO fares and service more like a regional metro, and integrate it tightly with the bus network.

Do both of these things and a good portion of Scarborough will be within 30 to 40 mins of Downtown for the first time. But neither of these things will happen because they’re not as sexy as “subways in Scarborough”

 

[p_xavier]

Tell that to Montreal where seemingly everything is being proposed and much of which is actually coming to fruition. SSE can be built, if only the detractor class would get out of the way.

Only because the CDPQi is doing it. The official governing authority (ARTM) is so slow to plan things that the government gave three new projects to the CDPQi directly, bypassing the authority.

Much like the Ontario line, transit must be privately planned to get the most efficient system.

 

[OneCity]

Toronto has a pro-SSE mayor, and apparently Scarborough has the supposed SSE proponent they wanted as Premier.

Can't blame detractors for the fact that Ford has delayed the project yet again.

The line is 'delayed' to repair and design the necessary stops too make it useful

Until this 'delay' all we were receiving was just a tunneled 'line'. No stops. Much thanks to the usual outside detractors, and dividers at City Hall

The detractors are certainly to blame for the majority of what went wrong with Scarborough transit in the past decade. Transit City likely would never have been considered if Scarborough had its own council. Then once overturned the best the City could provide with so much outside opposition was a one stop subway? Good lord! Amazingly some are shocked or think residents should be upset with Ford at this 'delay' here?

The detractors can also really take the bulk of the blame for the overwhelming Toronto support for the recent Mayors and Premier many here deeply despise. Really wouldn't have been nearly as high without so much extreme detraction

Almost every elected official of every stripe within this area of 800,000+ supports the subway and yet we still see Councillors in outside wards propagating meaningless division with false hope to constituents they will fight and stop the subway it as one of the highest priorities in their wards. Subway wards at that. Yes these detractors became a very serious problem to the overall City and planning absolutely needed to be taken far away from this kind of nonsense and into a higher level where all parties agree with the need to do better.

 

[44 North]

Fix Line 3, use savings to extend Line 4. And do so with same technology that's purported for "Ontario Line". If 100m trains can supposedly carry over 30k pphpd, then Line 4/Sheppard can get by with 50m trains til year 3000. The extension will be a breeze and very cost-effective.

 

[asher__jo]

Much like the Ontario line, transit must be privately planned to get the most efficient system.

Canada line was privately planned. I doubt it will be heralded as such a success in 20 years (platforms not designed to be easily expanded to length on Metro line, no station possible at W57th, and shutdown issues on the skybridge because the motors can't cope with slippery rails as well as LIM).

 

[Streety McCarface]

The SSE doesn't change that. People are still going to be taking buses.

If you're north of the 401 there are other options than the RT line if you're trying to reach the subway - like Finch and Sheppard.

We know that only 23% of transit trips beginning in Scarborough end downtown. Of that 23% there are probably quite a few that aren't too far from a station of some sort.

We have to remember that scarborough isn't that far from downtown, and regardless, the mode share downtown consists of mainly transit and walking. If you're going to build a subway connection in Scarborough, the best place to go is Downtown.

It's also worth noting that 23% in Scarborough is like 150K trips per day. Those are current transit trips. If you add a line that goes downtown, obviously more people are going to go downtown. People don't take transit from scarborough to other areas because it's too inconvenient and not worth it (parking costs, traffic, etc).