Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

Most transit users, that's users not the non-user, prefer streetcars, light rail, and then heavy rail over buses, in that order.

As a suburban transit rider that commutes city wide i dont fully agree. For one I love my express bus routes and as for having any preferred order of mode iI dont and It truly doesn't matter as long as its clean, not overly congested and more importantly takes me where i need to go in a reasonable timeframe. As for aesthetics a BRT can be just as inviting as an LRT. One of the issues with buses is they are obliviously less smooth on the main streets but this can also be improved with as a dedicated BRT.

 

[Steve X]

I thought it would be cool to ride a Flexity from Humber to Long Branch on a Sunday afternoon. It took way too long with one person getting off at every stop while opening all doors. Yup they should have gotten rid of half the stops along Lakeshore if they really want it to go fast.

 

[sixrings]

I thought it would be cool to ride a Flexity from Humber to Long Branch on a Sunday afternoon. It took way too long with one person getting off at every stop while opening all doors. Yup they should have gotten rid of half the stops along Lakeshore if they really want it to go fast.

Bus weaves in and out of traffic to drop people off. It's not smooth at all. Being in a bus sometimes feels like being in a car with a impatient driver who changes Lanes every two minutes like it will make a difference in speed.

 

[robmausser]

I'm always amazed on a urban thread how there is seemingly endless brt support in contrast to little let support. But those who want to spend the least expect when it's in their best interest seem to be loud voices.

I much prefer trains/lrts/streetcars and overall dislike buses but there are definite benefits, like the last mile issue, especially when a transitway is not directly near points of interest.

The Mississauga transitway for example would be a disaster as an LRT, until density is built up around the stations.

Furthermore, with hydro corridors specifically, there are sometimes issues with getting LRT infrastructure allowed in them, versus just a strip of tar for buses. Sometimes the former isnt possible but the latter is.

 

[asher__jo]

I much prefer trains/lrts/streetcars and overall dislike buses but there are definite benefits, like the last mile issue, especially when a transitway is not directly near points of interest.

The Mississauga transitway for example would be a disaster as an LRT, until density is built up around the stations.

Furthermore, with hydro corridors specifically, there are sometimes issues with getting LRT infrastructure allowed in them, versus just a strip of tar for buses. Sometimes the former isnt possible but the latter is.

The first time I rode a streetcar I was instantly sold how much better it is over a bus in terms of ride. But new streetcar routes only really make sense with ROW.

 

[sixrings]

I much prefer trains/lrts/streetcars and overall dislike buses but there are definite benefits, like the last mile issue, especially when a transitway is not directly near points of interest.

The Mississauga transitway for example would be a disaster as an LRT, until density is built up around the stations.

Furthermore, with hydro corridors specifically, there are sometimes issues with getting LRT infrastructure allowed in them, versus just a strip of tar for buses. Sometimes the former isnt possible but the latter is.

As a transit user I'd just like dedicated lanes on all my major streets. Again that's basically the blue line bus routes. Don mills, Eglinton, Lawrence, steel, finch, Kipling, Wilson, isslington. If the way that is accomplished is BRT then I'll be ok with it. I have family in Ottawa and BRT in their own hydro lanes does work there. It would just be my preference to expand the road to give transit their own lane versus having to go out of my way to a corridor to access transit. For years I used the finch east express. My only real complaints is the weaving in and out of traffic and it not having it's own lane. These things are fixable but we need to have the will to accept we don't need huge patches of grass between sidewalks and the road.

 

[sixrings]

The first time I rode a streetcar I was instantly sold how much better it is over a bus in terms of ride. But new streetcar routes only really make sense with ROW.

Well dufferin could use a streetcar but there isn't room for its own lane south of Eglinton.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Well dufferin could use a streetcar but there isn't room for its own lane south of Eglinton.

Unless they ban street parking, with off-street parking accessed from the side streets. Left turns would have to circle the block, using right turns.

 

[sixrings]

Unless they ban street parking, with off-street parking accessed from the side streets. Left turns would have to circle the block, using right turns.

But then wouldn't there be only one lane each way for cars? I don't think there are any roads like that in Toronto

 

[Streety McCarface]

This is the part that people don't get about the Confederation Line in Ottawa. There's a lot of places where it is passing backyards and warehouses. Ottawa's approach was extremely pragmatic. They took an existing BRT corridor. Put rail on it. Rerouted buses to it. They have a light metro that is fed by buses and gets folks across town quickly.

Toronto is constantly trying to do to many things at once. Run on street to replace buses and promote development. But also run fast enough to replace express buses and feed the subway quickly. Can't have both.

You can, you just can't expect it to be as effective as focussing on one solution. There are reasons people advocate for Eglinton being a subway line and lines like Finch West and Jane being On-Street LRTs. You do need both, but you can't have them increase speed, replace many bus lines and promote development without some aspect affecting another. There is no perfect solution.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The advantage of light and heavy rail is that both allow multi-unit operation. Several cars can be connected together with frequent headways, allowing for increased capacity and quicker flow of passengers. While some articulated buses may be similar to rail, they can't be coupled together.

 

[doady]

Yeah I don't think there much point building BRT in Toronto. The frequency of the buses would be too high for signal priority.

BRT vs. LRT vs. subway is mostly about capacity. Riders only care that it's fast and gets them where they want to go.

Ottawa was one of the leaders in transit ridership in Canada before it built LRT, higher than Calgary and Edmonton. Higher ridership than anywhere in the US outside of NYC.

Likewise, Seattle was always one of the transit leaders in the US even before it finally built LRT. The average person just doesn't give a shit about bus vs. rail, let alone light rail vs. heavy rail.

I think that is the flaw of City of Toronto's approach to transit expansion. It's more of a pro-rail, anti-bus thing, same as all those failing systems in the US. It's also in isolation of GO and other systems in the GTA. Direct link between downtown and Scarborough Centre probably should habe been in collaboration with GO. People will still have to transfer at Bloor-Yonge so subway doesn't solve that problem. Toronto needs to stop trying to solve everything by itself.

 

[asher__jo]

Well dufferin could use a streetcar but there isn't room for its own lane south of Eglinton.

Sad, but true. With an increase in density, I could potentially see it getting LRT underground.

 

[mdrejhon]

I was born in Ottawa and I always depended on the Transitway BRT as a kid in the 1980s.

It was neat to have a "highway just for buses" -- and many outsiders not familiar with the BRT concept -- thought that was really clever of Ottawa.

Now, there are many populations that are pro-rail, anti-bus -- because they are growing up in a city where their metro is greatly superior to buses -- leading to a pro-rail, anti-BRT mentality there.

That said, there are comfort advantages to rail. Yesterday's newspaper-holding standees and today's smartphone-holding standees find it easier to balance on rail than buses. Especially the frail/disabled who struggle to balance. In cities where enough ridership occurs to make standees common, there is a genuine standee comfort preference for rail, even at the same transit corridor capacity.

In this sense, it is a transit-amplifier at peak period, since more are willing to standee on rail than buses, even by those who can otherwise afford other modes (e.g. Uber, buying a car, etc). The new Ottawa's LRT tweets last weekend is a great example -- many Ottawans have suddenly discovered it's so lovely to standee on the LRT versus OC Transpo buses.

The threshold is a bit fuzzy, and there is capacity overlap -- and comfort overlap -- a true grade-separated BRT with plush seats often has more capacity and comfort than an on-street "old tram vehicles" route.

 

[Steve X]

Ottawa's Transitway is superior to typical BRT with signal priority like Viva Rapidways. It's similar to the eastern portion of the Mississauga Transitway, a super2 for buses with no at grade crossing. A lot of people will fall in love with them if they have them in TO.

The advantage of light and heavy rail is that both allow multi-unit operation. Several cars can be connected together with frequent headways, allowing for increased capacity and quicker flow of passengers. While some articulated buses may be similar to rail, they can't be coupled together.

If a transitway is built for isolated operation (fully grade separated), I don't see why they can't operate bi-articulated buses. It could be deem a private road (like a subway with tires) that can bypass the HTA.

Anyways, there isn't that many places to built super2 grade transitway in Toronto. Public transit with the TTC is always based on feeder buses to trunk rail transit lines since the beginning of existence. First with trunk streetcar line, later subways. There was never the idea of running bus routes from different parts of the city to downtown. The allow the system to evolve to the current easy to navigate grid system which help build the non commuting ridership base. The drawback with a grid system is it takes significantly longer to get from the suburbs to the core. Instead of travelling diagonally, it's always E/W and S/N.