Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[nfitz]

We can't pretend that the new massive funding commitments for the Relief Line and for Yonge North won't cause delays for some of the smaller projects. Eglinton East, Sheppard, and any attempts to extend the Finch LRT beyond the original Keele - Humber College segment, will have to wait until the payments for RL and Yonge North are settled.

By Ford's own admission this plan will delay some bigger projects as well, such as the almost shovel-ready 2026 Scarborough subway extension.

Also, there's the 2027 date for the Ontario Line. How can they possibly need another up to 4 years to 2030 for the already partially designed Line 2 extension (with some design work done for the entire length) and then be able to deliver the completely undesigned much longer Ontario line up to 3 years earlier? Quite frankly they'll be luck to meet the current 2029 date. Though surely, the reality is that the hundreds of millions the city was going to spend this year, is simply going to stop being spent, and there'll be years of delay as the work transitions from the city to the province. Look how many years the opening of relatively Finch West has already slipped after it was uploaded? Recall that when the province announced full funding for the line in 2009, it was to be completed in 2013, with council getting ready to start tendering the initial contracts in 2010. Then the province changed tracks in 2010 and uploaded the line, delaying the opening to 2019. Despite not much to slow it down, it then slipped to 2020 by 2013. Then in 2017 they said 2022. And now it's 2023. That's ten years later than the city was working. It's possible that the city would have delivered it late ... but 10 years for mostly surface LRT?

Lets keep in mind the City was seriously designing a subway without stops with a questionable opening date of 2026 and the Liberals were mum. Delaying 3-4 years to build a proper line is unfortunate but hardly a concern here. Its great news after witnessing real incompetence the last couple decades.

Not sure why 2026 was questionable. With tendering starting soon, that's a typical timeframe. The delay isn't necessary at all, if Tories really cared about Scarborough, they'd simply provide TTC with the extra funding, work in the Lawrence East design and extension to Sheppard while they proceed with the current plan (without the huge bus terminal and the Lawrence East emergency exit), then add a contract for Lawrence East station. By the time the TBM finishes the almost 6 km to Scarborough Centre, they should be able to have got the design done to do another 1.5 km tunnel to Sheppard. Perhaps the final station opens a year or two later, and they use a temporary bus terminal.

But no, what's really going to happen is they'll push it off until after the DRL and Line 1 extension. Then between, this, that, the other thing, and various elections ... it just never starts.

They could have had major construction underway by 2021, long before the 2022 elections, which could surely delay the whole thing until the mid-2030s or later. But the Conservatives are instead choosing that another government spend money later. This doesn't get anything built. Again.

It amazes me that people don't see the shell game for what it is.

 

[OneCity]

By Ford's own admission this plan will delay some bigger projects as well, such as the almost shovel-ready 2026 Scarborough subway extension.

Also, there's the 2027 date for the Ontario Line. How can they possibly need another up to 4 years to 2030 for the already partially designed Line 2 extension (with some design work done for the entire length) and then be able to deliver the completely undesigned much longer Ontario line up to 3 years earlier? Quite frankly they'll be luck to meet the current 2029 date. Though surely, the reality is that the hundreds of millions the city was going to spend this year, is simply going to stop being spent, and there'll be years of delay as the work transitions from the city to the province. Look how many years the opening of relatively Finch West has already slipped after it was uploaded? Recall that when the province announced full funding for the line in 2009, it was to be completed in 2013, with council getting ready to start tendering the initial contracts in 2010. Then the province changed tracks in 2010 and uploaded the line, delaying the opening to 2019. Despite not much to slow it down, it then slipped to 2020 by 2013. Then in 2017 they said 2022. And now it's 2023. That's ten years later than the city was working. It's possible that the city would have delivered it late ... but 10 years for mostly surface LRT?

Not sure why 2026 was questionable. With tendering starting soon, that's a typical timeframe. The delay isn't necessary at all, if Tories really cared about Scarborough, they'd simply provide TTC with the extra funding, work in the Lawrence East design and extension to Sheppard while they proceed with the current plan (without the huge bus terminal and the Lawrence East emergency exit), then add a contract for Lawrence East station. By the time the TBM finishes the almost 6 km to Scarborough Centre, they should be able to have got the design done to do another 1.5 km tunnel to Sheppard. Perhaps the final station opens a year or two later, and they use a temporary bus terminal.

But no, what's really going to happen is they'll push it off until after the DRL and Line 1 extension. Then between, this, that, the other thing, and various elections ... it just never starts.

They could have had major construction underway by 2021, long before the 2022 elections, which could surely delay the whole thing until the mid-2030s or later. But the Conservatives are instead choosing that another government spend money later. This doesn't get anything built. Again.

It amazes me that people don't see the shell game for what it is.

I agree with you in part that they could (likely should) have amended the current design to save time and now its clear some form of re-design is now going to move forward over the next few years, setting up for some re-election bait around the time of tendering construction. As unfortunate as the delay is, I have far have more confidence in this Provincial admin to design a supportable extension in the next few years than anything the dysfunctional City could or has come up with.

Where I truly disagree is your doomsday outlook and the idea we are building nothing. Whatever design is finalized here it certainly wont have a pre-Centre transfer,it will have multiple stops and will proceed to construction still fully funded thereafter. I really dont see any other party overturning a well designed line at that long overdue stage that will be overwhelming supported compared to the last two frail and highly questionable plans slapped together by the City.

 

[nfitz]

I agree with you in part that they could (likely should) have amended the current design to save time and now its clear some form of re-design is now going to move forward over the next few years, setting up for some re-election bait around the time of tendering construction. As unfortunate as the delay is, I have far have more confidence in this admin to design a supportable extension in the next few years than anything the dysfunctional City could or has come up with.

You don't think think the current plan isn't dysfunctional?

And how is a 2026 opening questionable for a simple one-station extension of an existing line, and you aren't questioning a 2027 opening for a brand 15-km 15-station new line with as-of-yet-unselected technology with stations in unfinalized locations without any pre-design work, let alone design work?

Where I truly disagree is your doomsday outlook and the idea we are building nothing.

I don't think we are building nothing. There's a lot under way currently.

Until Doug Ford screws us all completely, just like he's screwing Scarborough by cancelling dozens of rapid transit stations and replacing it with $6-billion fantasy.

Why support such idiocy? Good grief, LRT downtown and heavy-rail subway in the suburbs? That's beyond absurd.

And it's complete fiction, as the 2027 opening date demonstrates. With your suggestion that 1 station for 2026 on an existing line is questionable, without questioning 2027 for an entire new line simply demonstrates how completely unreliable your commentary is.

We all know that Doug Ford lies. Why do you fall for such obvious deception time and time again?

 

[OneCity]

You don't think think the current plan isn't dysfunctional?

And how is a 2026 opening questionable for a simple one-station extension of an existing line, and you aren't questioning a 2027 opening for a brand 15-km 15-station new line with as-of-yet-unselected technology with stations in unfinalized locations without any pre-design work, let alone design work?

I don't think we are building nothing. There's a lot under way currently.

Until Doug Ford screws us all completely, just like he's screwing Scarborough by cancelling dozens of rapid transit stations and replacing it with $6-billion fantasy.

Why support such idiocy? Good grief, LRT downtown and heavy-rail subway in the suburbs? That's beyond absurd.

And it's complete fiction, as the 2027 opening date demonstrates. With your suggestion that 1 station for 2026 on an existing line is questionable, without questioning 2027 for an entire new line simply demonstrates how completely unreliable your commentary is.

We all know that Doug Ford lies. Why do you fall for such obvious deception time and time again?

Doesn't matter the technology its the details of how its implemented and connected to what exists. If ridership is adequate for both then its really complaining for the sake of complaining.

All lines will be supportable. Scarborough Centre will be design to be connected on both ends, the relief line will provide relief. 2027 or 2030 wont matter too much in the long run if we are finally moving ahead with detailed and funded plans. Something all those other honest leaders did not step up to achieve and not this governments fault. They are capitalizing politically and fixing the lines the City clearly struggled with.

Doesnt matter who is in power these lines will be well designed and funded. Ford may stage them a bit strategically to help stay in power but no matter what they will be built

 

[nfitz]

They are capitalizing politically and fixing the lines the City clearly struggled with.

With no information on how those fraudsters are going to magically open the Ontario Line in 2027, that you could suggest that shows clear bias.

There's a huge difference between 2026 and 2030. One has TBMs in the ground before the next election. The other doesn't. The implications are clear.

 

[sixrings]

My wife told me I was going to get a ferrari when I was 30. But then when I turned 30 a better model was released at the autoshow. My wife told me to wait. At 35 I was going to finally get my ferrari but then we needed a new roof. I just turned 40 which is when I expected my ferrari but instead we built a baby room. But my wife told me in five years we will finally be able to buy that ferrari.... unless of course we have another kid. It's ok. I like the bus.

 

[OneCity]

With no information on how those fraudsters are going to magically open the Ontario Line in 2027, that you could suggest that shows clear bias.

There's a huge difference between 2026 and 2030. One has TBMs in the ground before the next election. The other doesn't. The implications are clear.

First, we don't need TBMs in the ground on a one stop subway. That's the vomit that was handed off to the current Province to clean up. This nonsense is really not the Conservatives fault whatsoever and if they choose to leverage fixing the line for some political gain as well, so be it at this stage. Just fix the line once and for all and move on.

As you can see I'm not saying the current Province isn't taking political advantage of the situation at all. I don't like they delay, but I really dislike what happened the last two decades with the City council and Liberals far more. I can accept some strategic political delay to an extent when this admin has clearly stepped up to fix the mess left by the City and the fact they are actually allocating necessary funding to send all the lines to construction once they are fixed in the next few years. Remember the Provincial Liberals choose to stay completely silent as the City absolutely destroyed this line when the bulk of responsibility for this lines alignment was the Liberals.

I highly prefer the current plans moving forward compared to the existing ones. The previous Provincial fraudsters were beyond overrated on transit capital and the City is clearly not set up to either plan reasonable transit or fund adequately. What I like the most is if even your crystal ball is correct and Ford intends to do nothing the next admin we will be set up nicely with solid designs and funding ready to go. The Conservatives also plan on using the SSE to leverage the Sheppard subway the following two election cycles if given the opportunity so this is a long term plan in play. Therefore I do believe this admin absolutely intends to build at this critical stage, but will maximize gain for their own benefit to remain in office as they will likely have even more transit support from voters as these designs develop.

While i wish these lines were built yesterday and cant come soon enough i'm thankful the Province in general is taking over planning from the polarized planning incompetence within the City. We'll see more detail soon enough

 

[Rainforest]

By Ford's own admission this plan will delay some bigger projects as well, such as the almost shovel-ready 2026 Scarborough subway extension.

Yeah, I have a mixed feeling about that. On one hand, the 3-stop plan is a lot better than the one-stop plan, and it is worth waiting 3 or 4 more yeas, to get the project done right.

On the other hand, the delay and the change in course increase the risk of the future governments tampering with this project again. So, I wouldn't mind if the immediate decision was to build the one-stop version ASAP, and apply the rest of funding to another project, for example Eglinton East, or for a light rail link from STC to Malvern.

Also, there's the 2027 date for the Ontario Line. How can they possibly need another up to 4 years to 2030 for the already partially designed Line 2 extension (with some design work done for the entire length) and then be able to deliver the completely undesigned much longer Ontario line up to 3 years earlier? Quite frankly they'll be luck to meet the current 2029 date. Though surely, the reality is that the hundreds of millions the city was going to spend this year, is simply going to stop being spent, and there'll be years of delay as the work transitions from the city to the province. Look how many years the opening of relatively Finch West has already slipped after it was uploaded? Recall that when the province announced full funding for the line in 2009, it was to be completed in 2013, with council getting ready to start tendering the initial contracts in 2010. Then the province changed tracks in 2010 and uploaded the line, delaying the opening to 2019. Despite not much to slow it down, it then slipped to 2020 by 2013. Then in 2017 they said 2022. And now it's 2023. That's ten years later than the city was working. It's possible that the city would have delivered it late ... but 10 years for mostly surface LRT?

Our transit delivery is messy, and likely will be messier under Doug Ford than it was before him. That doesn't necessarily mean his projects will get cancelled. More likely, most of them will be built, but will be built later than he promises.

 

[sixrings]

As a lrt advocate and former scarborough resident if we have the plans done for a one stop Then we should just build that and call it a day. It's a crappy compromise which pleases no one 100% but if it: means something gets built I am ok with that.

 

[Hopkins123]

As a lrt advocate and former scarborough resident if we have the plans done for a one stop Then we should just build that and call it a day. It's a crappy compromise which pleases no one 100% but if it: means something gets built I am ok with that.

A one stop proposal would only make sense if provisions are made for future infill stations at Brimley-Eglinton and McCowan-Lawrence.

 

[sixrings]

A one stop proposal would only make sense if provisions are made for future infill stations at Brimley-Eglinton and McCowan-Lawrence.

I don't know why Brimley and eglinton needs a station in a world where eglinton east lrt exists. Sure male the mccowan and lawrence in fillstation and callit aday

 

[Hopkins123]

I don't know why Brimley and eglinton needs a station in a world where eglinton east lrt exists. Sure male the mccowan and lawrence in fillstation and callit aday

Only you would think a 4 km spacing gap in between stations is normal or rational. Even the Stouffville/Lincolnville GO Line is locally spaced through Markham.

 

[sixrings]

I don't get it. The lrt spacing is too much. The one stop isn't enough. if you wanted more spacing the lrt could have been running by now. All I'm saying is if the one stop plan is designed let's move ahead before this thing gets changed again in the future. Personally I am a bird in the hand is worth more than two in a bush type of guy. Especially when it comes to transit which essentially is just promises by politicians who we know lie until shovels are in the ground. Some people here hate politicians until they tell them what they want to hear. And then even if it's unrealistic they believe it because it's their dream project. None of these plans are my dream projects. I just want something built.

 

[drum118]

The plan conversion and expansion for An LRT was to open this year, yet this line maybe gone before the subway opens.
<https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...hed-critical-vehicle-shortage-last-month.html>

 

[BurlOak]

I don't get it. The lrt spacing is too much. The one stop isn't enough. if you wanted more spacing the lrt could have been running by now. All I'm saying is if the one stop plan is designed let's move ahead before this thing gets changed again in the future. Personally I am a bird in the hand is worth more than two in a bush type of guy. Especially when it comes to transit which essentially is just promises by politicians who we know lie until shovels are in the ground. Some people here hate politicians until they tell them what they want to hear. And then even if it's unrealistic they believe it because it's their dream project. None of these plans are my dream projects. I just want something built.

The combined Eglinton-Scarborough LRT could have been completed on the same timelines as Eglinton. It was a plan that nobody opposed. It was only when Councillors and MPPs realized they could attack Ford that this plan fell apart.
These delays now all fall back on the decisions made in 2012 and 2013. If the bird in the hand is a quail and the bird in the bush is a turkey - I will wait. It takes a bit of time to undo the mess caused by others.