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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

coffey1 said:
Its hard to have a fair calm debate when the discussion in the media and voices only support one side of the debate. Actions speak louder than words. And when Scarborough's calm views about integration and connection to the City's current infrastructure have fallen on deaf ears for a long enough they had to fight back the only way they could. At the polls & to be heard things became nasty. Two Mayors in a row both acknowledging the disrespect in Scarborough & a certain Party continued to ignore and bring the "facts" that support their plan instead of looking to improve the problem areas. .

I know what your saying. But this ugly Political rhetoric is a bi-product of one side not listening and having the media control its message. So a large portion of Scarborough has voiced itself at the polls and we have leaders using brash tactics to acknowledge we exist & start to get the message heard the only way it could be done. I think for the first time this week it was a wake up to those who fought for so long to push the LRT plan "as-is" come hell or high water. Propaganda is on both sides and its only recently its come from a Scarborough centric view. The Propaganda assault is much stronger in the City's Left media. I think that also this one sided media debate made some people from outside Scarborough have stronger views as they just don't understand & could never understand with the bias info they are given.

I really think the disconnect is so strong these people thought they were doing the right thing. And most still do as you can see it here. There are many good points to the all LRT plan and they have been repeated enough some people think there is no better option. But It's never the right thing to not compromise or work towards better integration. I'm actually more happy for the City as a whole at what happened this week because it saves us from another polarized election with arguments and ideas that push us further apart. Now its about funding/taxes & new ideas to integrate better. Not about Subways vs. LRT as one technology.

Now go ahead and flame me as usual. But this is mainly what I've been saying and its the state of where we are Politically.
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You keep talking about the media but I haven't seen one actual fact that justifies a subway extension.

What, exactly, about the LRT qualifies as propaganda?
 
Ok guys, drop the LRT conversation just as I will drop the SkyTrain one. Those horses have left the barn and anymore conversation about them is just argumentative. The diicision has been made and there is no going back so the conversation now must be about the route and any at grade/elevation/tunnel.

Just having one stop means that they should get the connection to the STC as cheaply as humanly possible because there will be no intermittent stations.

This is where the people of Scarborough can stand up and say that now we have our subway connection we have to ensure it is built as affordable as possible to allow for a potential further eastern extension to Centennial and to ensure the Eglinton East LRT line gets built.
 
coffey1 said:
The subway will not be One stop. A 3rd Party is coming in to review other routes and option. Tory had also gone back to the consultant and requested similar even before the last ditch assault and attack by the same outside Polarized Politicians and their media partners who refused to listen once again. Eglinton East is still going to be built to UTSC either with the saving from the new subway alignment or funding from the Government. .
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What savings? All this line indicates is no one between Kennedy and STC matters. There has got to be a way hopefully this line does not get built
 
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crs1026 said:
That's why I suggested another look at the Midland routing. The current approved routing can't be done cut and cover without considerable expropriation in residential areas, and that's just not on.

A routing that goes up one of the north south avenues with 90-degreeish turns does not need to be tunnelled, nor does it need to be so deep. The depth is one thing that led to the higher cost figure.

IIRC the original routing study was heavily weighted towards comparative ridership issues. That analysis did not have the benefit of the more detailed geotechnical data that we now have. Maybe the chosen route isn't the best routing any more.

- Paul
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That's an interesting possibility.

If they can go up Midland, cut-and-cover, and build shallow stations at Lawrence and Ellesmere before shutting down the SRT, then it might be possible to re-route the buses to those two stations during the last phase (SRT shutdown and building the last segment of subway reaching STC).

One concern is the turn from Eglinton to Midland. With the TTC's preferred 300-m turning radius, the tunnel will have to go under some houses.
 
syn said:
You keep talking about the media but I haven't seen one actual fact that justifies a subway extension.

What, exactly, about the LRT qualifies as propaganda?
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We've tried questioning his paranoia but he just doesn't get it. My advice is to move on.
 
pstogios said:
We've tried questioning his paranoia but he just doesn't get it. My advice is to move on.
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Paranoia my ass.. All media is Politically biased. Unless you live under a rock, or are that naïve you cant see that? I get you do see it from a Scarborough resident POV to understand the extent and lack of interest in many of our concerns. But I don't get why you have to sling mud and be such an ass as if its a joke. If anyone gets what's going on Politically. Ive been telling you whats going on in this City when you and others chose to only quote the Polarizing views and not see the root cause of why people are voting with they way they are & why the vote is so strong Politicians are starting to listen.

We both agree on something its time to move on. Lets debate the SSE subway options itll be much less polarizing.
 
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I think the Toronto Star bias against the Bloor Danforth extension to STC is undeniable. They've harped on it more than anyone else.

coffey might be paranoid, but the bias is definitely there.

I have to agree with keithz, the LRT implementation for Scarborough was pretty terrible and didn't really sell itself.

The best idea I've heard in this thread is just doing the subway extension elevated along McCowan and reinstating Lawrence East and adding a stop around Danforth/Eglinton/McCowan.

Also, the people who say this extension is completely unjustified do nothing to contribute to the conversation. As mentioned, STC is one of and will be one of the most used stops before and after.

I think it's clear the current plan is expensive for what it is, and every effort should be made to build the subway extension more affordable, such as by elevating.

Not sure why certain people are so biased against working toward making this happen at the best cost.
 
I don't have any faith in the idea that Tory and the subway boosters will support Eglinton East LRT if the going gets tough. Faced with a choice of building the SSE and dumping the Eglinton East LRT, and not building either if the funding isn't there, they will always choose the former. Always.

The support for Eglinton East LRT has always been not nearly as full-throated as the support for the SSE: it's been a political price to pay to get the latter built. It's to head off accusations of blatant log-rolling. Push comes to shove, and there isn't enough money to build both, Eglinton East will be kicked to the kerb and put out for 'further study'. Talk of 'network' will be wind and words. They care not a whit for real transit planning, just whatever sounds good. Subway sounds good right now, so subways, subways, subways.

When Brad Duguid starts talking up the Eglinton East LRT will I start to believe it is really happening. Not before.
 
Rainforest said:
One concern is the turn from Eglinton to Midland. With the TTC's preferred 300-m turning radius, the tunnel will have to go under some houses.
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That's true, but in that area any of the alternative routes may need some tunnelling for the first bit. At least there are no deep foundation buildings on that curve.

I don't know why there was a knee jerk reaction when expropriation was first raised. (Apart from the Toronto Star meeting its usual low journalistic standard by running a photo of someone looking sad and building a story around that). The City expropriates lots of properties every year for various reasons. Losing a few houses to this project is not unreasonable.

As someone noted, one would expect a certain amount of rezoning to allow development along the subway route. Lower Midland is only residential on one side, and it's a place where some houses may be lost anyways over the longer term. I'm not encouraging that, but it should not be a showstopper if the rest of the route can be done quickly and for less money.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
That's true, but in that area any of the alternative routes may need some tunnelling for the first bit. At least there are no deep foundation buildings on that curve.

I don't know why there was a knee jerk reaction when expropriation was first raised. (Apart from the Toronto Star meeting its usual low journalistic standard by running a photo of someone looking sad and building a story around that). The City expropriates lots of properties every year for various reasons. Losing a few houses to this project is not unreasonable.

As someone noted, one would expect a certain amount of rezoning to allow development along the subway route. Lower Midland is only residential on one side, and it's a place where some houses may be lost anyways over the longer term. I'm not encouraging that, but it should not be a showstopper if the rest of the route can be done quickly and for less money.

- Paul
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I agree that losing a few houses should not be a showstopper if it saves a lot of money and time; but it seems unpopular these days and I am not sure that the politicians in charge will endorse that approach.

Rezoning, AFAIK, is a different situation; the city allows the private developers to build highrises in a designated area, but the developers themselves have to contact the current homeowners and purchase their land. The homeowners are not forced to sell if they do not want to.

Anyway, I hope that you are right and a cheaper construction route is possible.
 
This extra stop at Lawrence is a waste of breath. Council and Tory voted on a one-stop subway extension to STC, nothing more, nothing less. They didn't just vote on technology but also on the premise of a non-stop to STC.

This is why any tunneling along Midland should not be considered. The approval was to get from point A to point B and now they have to ensure they connect those two points as quickly and cheaply as possible. That leads to only one conclusion, the RT corridor.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
I think the Toronto Star bias against the Bloor Danforth extension to STC is undeniable. They've harped on it more than anyone else.

coffey might be paranoid, but the bias is definitely there.

I have to agree with keithz, the LRT implementation for Scarborough was pretty terrible and didn't really sell itself.

The best idea I've heard in this thread is just doing the subway extension elevated along McCowan and reinstating Lawrence East and adding a stop around Danforth/Eglinton/McCowan.

Also, the people who say this extension is completely unjustified do nothing to contribute to the conversation. As mentioned, STC is one of and will be one of the most used stops before and after.

I think it's clear the current plan is expensive for what it is, and every effort should be made to build the subway extension more affordable, such as by elevating.

Not sure why certain people are so biased against working toward making this happen at the best cost.
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They're harped on it, but can you point to anything unreasonable they've written?

Based on TTC data, that isn't really true:

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Subway_ridership_2014.pdf

At this point there are 30 stops with greater ridership.

Palma said:
What savings? All this line indicates is no one between Kennedy and STC matters. There has got to be a way hopefully this line does not get built
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Exactly.

I oppose this line because you could take that $4 billion and develop a far more effective transit solution that serves a greater number of people in Scarborough.
 
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