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TTC/Metrolinx: Scarborough Subway Extension

Cobra

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I think elevated McCowan alignment could probably get us stations at Lawrence, Sheppard and Eglinton/Danforth under the same funding envelope as the underground.

I though so too. Why not just elevate the subway on Eglinton East and then McCowan road all the way to Sheppard? Surely the savings would be enough to have an Eglinton-McCowan station, Lawrence East Station and Sheppard East.

This is where I'm very curious and anxious to see "HOW" the city plans to revitalize Scarborough Town Centre. If McCowan is to be the main corridor, then bungalows shouldn't be on that corridor and we could see a vastly rezoning initiative like on Sheppard Avenue.

Elevated subways are visually intrusive to residential areas but rezoning to commercial and high density means this argument no longer holds. The Gardiner doesn't impede on the proliferation of condo towers along the highway, so there's no excuses to not elevate that line.

I support the subway but if they keep it underground and at only 1 station, this will be one of the most idiotic decisions the city has ever made.
 

crs1026

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I wonder if the study that selected the subway alignment is still valid, given the discovery work that has driven the price up, and the decision to focus on only reaching STC.

A cut and cover alignment up Midland is possible, with tunnelling at the south end. There is a diversion route for much of it via Midwest. That would bypass much of the difficulr region in the creekbed. If the northernmost section were built last, the SRT could be kept in operation for a while, shortening the duration of the bus shuttle. That might bring the cost back down.

That route would put the end alignment thru STC on the east-west, permitting further extension eastwards some day.

- Paul
 

ssiguy2

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The conversation is over. Regardless of what people think of the outcome it's time to put the conversation behind and move forward.

I don't agree with the subway but then neither did I the LRt and even less now that the LRT price has skyrocketed to near subway level costs. Using the RT corridor the line could be easily be built for $125 million per km as with subways the big expenses are grade separation, tunneling, and stations NONE of which are a problem with the RT corridor. Using the RT corridor non-stop to STC, the line will turn could turn out to be nearly $1.5 billion less than forecast and a minimum of a billion. That means a lot of money elevated to get to Centennial and under the 401 to Sheppard. It could also be used for the Eglinton East LRT.

The big issue now is the route and for ease of construction, less construction time, little if any land aquisition, massively cheaper, connection for interlining with a future Sheppard subway extension coming in from the West, and by not having any in between stations so neither Smart Track/RER or the subway will bleed ridership from each other, the only option is the current RT route.
 

kEiThZ

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If you care about transit, let this be a lesson to have empathy for all users. Don't just listen to the loud transit advocates. Steve Munro may be amazing at his transit advocacy. But he doesn't get to decide what gets built. Ultimately, if you want your viewpoint to prevail, you'll have to convince voters. And this entire debate, the LRT side has not bothered to even understand the frustration of Scarborough residents. Instead, they've been told that they don't care about transit, or that they don't support higher densities or that they only want cars or that it's stupid that a transfer bothers them. Where was the pitch to make LRT look more attractive?

Worse still was the impression by those who complained the subway was not good value for money by then focused on price, and weren't willing to actually commit to spending the same amount on an LRT network in Scarborough. Seems like there's only more money for Scarborough when they're clamouring for subways. Not one pro-LRT councillor offered to add back the stops cut by the McGuinty government. Not one councillor offered to direct the one billion saved towards moving up Sheppard East. That doesn't give an impression of value for money. It gives an impression of "we need to save money in Scarborough to spend elsewhere."

I hope to see GO RER and/or Smart Track get accelerated before we debate the next subway or LRT so that people can actually start talking about transit in a wholistic manner. So that the subway doesn't come to represent economic access, as it has in Scarborough. And I really hope the pro-LRT camp listens to the concerns of residents when the time comes to debate Sheppard (most importantly...don't ignore the concerns of the transfer at Don Mills and at Morningside) Or we'll end up with another subway there.
 

syn

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The subway will not be One stop. A 3rd Party is coming in to review other routes and option. Tory had also gone back to the consultant and requested similar even before the last ditch assault and attack by the same outside Polarized Politicians and their media partners who refused to listen once again. Eglinton East is still going to be built to UTSC either with the saving from the new subway alignment or funding from the Government. Also BRT picks up Centennial College now as well. Its a multiple solution planned that focuses not just on being cheap, not just on priority neighborhoods, not just on integrating in a fair manner. It focuses on all 3. Which it should.

The "one size fits all" technology debate is over finally. Let move forward. A surface subway could do all the great things a surface LRT can do only more. Being so hard headed over a separate technology is mind boggling & at this stage if people care so much for that route they should be lobbying for that route for a subway.

The LRT network was very Political. We were all reminded OVER OVER and OVER of its good points through the Political media. We were only being sold on one side of the debate. What we weren't told is its Political design flaws. And when Scarborough tried to point them out no one listened. 2 Polarized elections of Mayors acknowledging Scarborough voice being drown out and the fact a simple, "Band-Aid" solution was used to integrate a massive are of differing needs the media still didn't care to listen or even try to compromise.

Thankfully this exhausted debate has been put to bed. It will never be back to this level on absurdity again. At this point I hope the Political media leaves Tory alone as well and focuses on useful topics like a funding plan, taxes, and route alignments... Those are the debates that are needed now.

A one stop extension has been approved.

Even if you add another station, it's still a terrible idea.

The density doesn't support it. Talk about left and right politics all you want, but that's the bottom line.

As for Transit City, of course politicians are going to talk about their ideas to the media. That's how things work.

Despite some debate about the details, Transit City was generally a fairly well thought out investment, that accounted for a variety of factors. It wasn't strictly a political exercise.

The Scarborough Subway is entirely about politics. There's nothing else to justify it.

I'm curious to know the political design flaws of the LRT compared to the current one stop subway. And what's 'Scarborough's voice'? If Miller had another term I'm sure people would've ultimately been fine with an LRT.
 

syn

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If you care about transit, let this be a lesson to have empathy for all users. Don't just listen to the loud transit advocates. Steve Munro may be amazing at his transit advocacy. But he doesn't get to decide what gets built. Ultimately, if you want your viewpoint to prevail, you'll have to convince voters. And this entire debate, the LRT side has not bothered to even understand the frustration of Scarborough residents. Instead, they've been told that they don't care about transit, or that they don't support higher densities or that they only want cars or that it's stupid that a transfer bothers them. Where was the pitch to make LRT look more attractive?

Worse still was the impression by those who complained the subway was not good value for money by then focused on price, and weren't willing to actually commit to spending the same amount on an LRT network in Scarborough. Seems like there's only more money for Scarborough when they're clamouring for subways. Not one pro-LRT councillor offered to add back the stops cut by the McGuinty government. Not one councillor offered to direct the one billion saved towards moving up Sheppard East. That doesn't give an impression of value for money. It gives an impression of "we need to save money in Scarborough to spend elsewhere."

I hope to see GO RER and/or Smart Track get accelerated before we debate the next subway or LRT so that people can actually start talking about transit in a wholistic manner. So that the subway doesn't come to represent economic access, as it has in Scarborough. And I really hope the pro-LRT camp listens to the concerns of residents when the time comes to debate Sheppard (most importantly...don't ignore the concerns of the transfer at Don Mills and at Morningside) Or we'll end up with another subway there.

What would you say is the frustration of Scarborough residents?
 

crs1026

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Would cut and cover save a significant amount of money? Seems like the suburban location would allow for it...

That's why I suggested another look at the Midland routing. The current approved routing can't be done cut and cover without considerable expropriation in residential areas, and that's just not on.

A routing that goes up one of the north south avenues with 90-degreeish turns does not need to be tunnelled, nor does it need to be so deep. The depth is one thing that led to the higher cost figure.

IIRC the original routing study was heavily weighted towards comparative ridership issues. That analysis did not have the benefit of the more detailed geotechnical data that we now have. Maybe the chosen route isn't the best routing any more.

- Paul
 

crs1026

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The other thing about a different alignment is - with a different routing, perhaps one could build the subway as far as ellesmere, with a (de minimus) station and crossovers there for less money than the deep bore. Then, you shut down and demolish SRT and finish the subway to STC. Doing it that way considerably reduces the scale and duration of the bus shuttle. Far less inconvenience, and potentially faster.

- Paul
 

kEiThZ

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What would you say is the frustration of Scarborough residents?

I'd argue that it's comnute time to the core (or more broadly outside Scarborough), and by extension economic access, since the bulk of jobs are in the core.

Yes, most trips are in Scarborough. But those aren't there ones that really take long. Very few people are spending 1 hr commuting inside Scarborough. And the LRT wouldn't have done much for most of these trips anyway.

Guys like @Forgotten slam me for supporting Smart Track. But from where I stand, I can see some palpable frustration with those commute times. And I can see that the subway has come to represent progress, investment, and economic access. This is why I sincerely hoped that we could have suburban rail and kill the mythology behind subways.

LRT can succeed in Scarborough. Needs a whole different sales pitch and implementation. And we really, really need to start pushing suburban rail (RER or Smart Track) for core bound commuters. Pitch LRT as the luxury streetcar to your 25 minute RER ride.
 

syn

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I'd argue that it's comnute time to the core (or more broadly outside Scarborough), and by extension economic access, since the bulk of jobs are in the core.

Yes, most trips are in Scarborough. But those aren't there ones that really take long. Very few people are spending 1 hr commuting inside Scarborough. And the LRT wouldn't have done much for most of these trips anyway.

Guys like @Forgotten slam me for supporting Smart Track. But from where I stand, I can see some palpable frustration with those commute times. And I can see that the subway has come to represent progress, investment, and economic access. This is why I sincerely hoped that we could have suburban rail and kill the mythology behind subways.

LRT can succeed in Scarborough. Needs a whole different sales pitch and implementation. And we really, really need to start pushing suburban rail (RER or Smart Track) for core bound commuters. Pitch LRT as the luxury streetcar to your 25 minute RER ride.

I think that's a definite factor - also a reason why I supported Smart Track.

My problem with the discussion is that the pro-LRT camp has repeatedly put forth a good case as to why it's a good solution, but it's difficult when you're drowned out by propaganda. When you have a mayor who repeatedly tells lies ('they'll have to tear up the roads', 'they're just streetcars', 'they'll block cars', Scarborough deserves better', etc.) instead of legitimate discussion you have a large segment of people who've made their mind up.

Discussion is a two-way street - I appreciate how they feel, but at some point they have a responsibility to educate themselves as well. For a lot of the people I've spoken to much of it stems from a feeling that downtown area gets everything while Scarborough is always ignored. I'm not sure how true that is in a general sense, but I do know a lot of the infrastructure downtown was built before amalgamation. There's also a sense that Scarborough has the most people in the city, therefore it deserves as much as downtown has in terms of subway and transit infrastructure.

I wish Tory had the courage to make Smart Track a replacement for the subway in Scarborough, instead of promising both.
 

coffey1

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I think that's a definite factor - also a reason why I supported Smart Track.

My problem with the discussion is that the pro-LRT camp has repeatedly put forth a good case as to why it's a good solution, but it's difficult when you're drowned out by propaganda. When you have a mayor who repeatedly tells lies ('they'll have to tear up the roads', 'they're just streetcars', 'they'll block cars', Scarborough deserves better', etc.) instead of legitimate discussion you have a large segment of people who've made their mind up.

Discussion is a two-way street - I appreciate how they feel, but at some point they have a responsibility to educate themselves as well. For a lot of the people I've spoken to much of it stems from a feeling that downtown area gets everything while Scarborough is always ignored. I'm not sure how true that is in a general sense, but I do know a lot of the infrastructure downtown was built before amalgamation. There's also a sense that Scarborough has the most people in the city, therefore it deserves as much as downtown has in terms of subway and transit infrastructure.

I wish Tory had the courage to make Smart Track a replacement for the subway in Scarborough, instead of promising both.

Its hard to have a fair calm debate when the discussion in the media and voices only support one side of the debate. Actions speak louder than words. And when Scarborough's calm views about integration and connection to the City's current infrastructure have fallen on deaf ears for a long enough they had to fight back the only way they could. At the polls & to be heard things became nasty. Two Mayors in a row both acknowledging the disrespect in Scarborough & a certain Party continued to ignore and bring the "facts" that support their plan instead of looking to improve the problem areas. .

I know what your saying. But this ugly Political rhetoric is a bi-product of one side not listening and having the media control its message. So a large portion of Scarborough has voiced itself at the polls and we have leaders using brash tactics to acknowledge we exist & start to get the message heard the only way it could be done. I think for the first time this week it was a wake up to those who fought for so long to push the LRT plan "as-is" come hell or high water. Propaganda is on both sides and its only recently its come from a Scarborough centric view. The Propaganda assault is much stronger in the City's Left media. I think that also this one sided media debate made some people from outside Scarborough have stronger views as they just don't understand & could never understand with the bias info they are given.

I really think the disconnect is so strong these people thought they were doing the right thing. And most still do as you can see it here. There are many good points to the all LRT plan and they have been repeated enough some people think there is no better option. But It's never the right thing to not compromise or work towards better integration. I'm actually more happy for the City as a whole at what happened this week because it saves us from another polarized election with arguments and ideas that push us further apart. Now its about funding/taxes & new ideas to integrate better. Not about Subways vs. LRT as one technology.

Now go ahead and flame me as usual. But this is mainly what I've been saying and its the state of where we are Politically.
 
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