TTC/Metrolinx: Scarborough Subway Extension

[salsa]

Where the heck is East York town centre even!? Does that even exist? It sounds like a bad joke. East York doesn't need a town centre.

EY Town Centre is in Thorncliffe Park and is basically a large suburban shopping plaza. The future vision and intensification plans is nothing like other suburban centres like STC, so it doesn't make much sense that this was even brought up.

 

[salsa]

Scarborough needs fair integration and....

What Scarborough also needs:

fair fare integration

I present to you, two surface subways in Scarborough with zero transfers! The best part is, they already exist today. They just need fare integration.

 

[LNahid2000]

EY Town Centre is in Thorncliffe Park and is basically a large suburban shopping plaza. The future vision and intensification plans is nothing like other suburban centres like STC, so it doesn't make much sense that this was even brought up.

This area probably already has a higher population density than STC without rapid transit.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This area probably already has a higher population density than STC without rapid transit.

"East York Town Centre" does indeed appear to be of greater density than Scarborough Centre.Though the densities obviously can't be attributed to EYTC.

 

[syn]

Cool... I agree LRT is great. Now lets convert the stubway and not inconvenience Scarborough commuters as if they live in a different City from where the entitlements were already gifted. Also its not a "one stop" subway to SCC. Its going to be re-routed & will be great. Don't forget the East West BRT being revised for Centennial College

Its not really about being deprived, because that will change. Its about Integration to what exists & designing a network which doesn't use cost as the only factor. It will take longer but Scarborough is much better off today. And certainly if they fund the Eglinton LRT to UTSC the footprint will be leaving a very good legacy

Lets focus on debating designs and funding and give up this same old LRT vs. Subway technology debate. A compromise has been found and its time to move on & start building.

What entitlements are you referring to?

The Bloor/Danforth extension is, in reality a one-stop extension, 6KM long, that doesn't make any sense. With the Bloor/Danforth Extension, there isn't really money left to do anything else in Scarborough.

I agree about not using cost as the only factor - that's never been the primary reason for an LRT route.

It makes sense because the population and employment density doesn't justify subway infrastructure (and won't for many decades).

It makes sense because it provides for greater coverage and access.

And yes, it makes sense because there's a limited number of transit dollars available and there are more pressing priorities.

It's just common sense.

 

[GenerationW]

'When did this debate become political? When a certain former mayor decided to use transit as a vote-getting tool, pretending that LRTs are somehow lesser than subways. The current mayor is unfortunately following the same playbook.

What planet are you on? Transit has always been political.

 

[syn]

What planet are you on? Transit has always been political.

Of course. I was referring to recent Scarborough Subway debate.

Relatively speaking the LRT plan wasn't political (or as political) in nature - it made sense. It was generally approved of by transit experts and planners.

If politics were an absolute non-factor I'm sure we'd just have the current RT refurbished for a fraction of the cost.

 

[GenerationW]

Of course. I was referring to recent Scarborough Subway debate.

Relatively speaking the LRT plan wasn't political (or as political) in nature - it made sense. It was generally approved of by transit experts and planners.

I see a plan with no DRL, the city's #1 transit priority, and during a time when we had $8 billion available, as political. It was even more political that Miller and Giambrone cynically threw Sheppard to the top of the list because they desperately wanted to kill the possibility of any subway extension.

 

[syn]

No doubt. When you have to get funding from different levels of government there's always going to be a politics at play. An extension to Vaughan obiouvsly makes no sense at all when there far greater priorities, for example.

But you could also look at Transit City and see at least some attempt to maximize value and provide improvements to priority neighborhoods. I wasn't sure about all of the LRT lines, but it was hard to look at the Finch LRT and not consider it a reasonable investment.

The Bloor/Danforth subway extension makes no sense on any level.

 

[coffey1]

No doubt. When you have to get funding from different levels of government there's always going to be a politics at play. An extension to Vaughan obiouvsly makes no sense at all when there far greater priorities, for example.

But you could also look at Transit City and see at least some attempt to maximize value and provide improvements to priority neighborhoods. I wasn't sure about all of the LRT lines, but it was hard to look at the Finch LRT and not consider it a reasonable investment.

The Bloor/Danforth subway extension makes no sense on any level.

The subway will not be One stop. A 3rd Party is coming in to review other routes and option. Tory had also gone back to the consultant and requested similar even before the last ditch assault and attack by the same outside Polarized Politicians and their media partners who refused to listen once again. Eglinton East is still going to be built to UTSC either with the saving from the new subway alignment or funding from the Government. Also BRT picks up Centennial College now as well. Its a multiple solution planned that focuses not just on being cheap, not just on priority neighborhoods, not just on integrating in a fair manner. It focuses on all 3. Which it should.

The "one size fits all" technology debate is over finally. Let move forward. A surface subway could do all the great things a surface LRT can do only more. Being so hard headed over a separate technology is mind boggling & at this stage if people care so much for that route they should be lobbying for that route for a subway.

The LRT network was very Political. We were all reminded OVER OVER and OVER of its good points through the Political media. We were only being sold on one side of the debate. What we weren't told is its Political design flaws. And when Scarborough tried to point them out no one listened. 2 Polarized elections of Mayors acknowledging Scarborough voice being drown out and the fact a simple, "Band-Aid" solution was used to integrate a massive are of differing needs the media still didn't care to listen or even try to compromise.

Thankfully this exhausted debate has been put to bed. It will never be back to this level on absurdity again. At this point I hope the Political media leaves Tory alone as well and focuses on useful topics like a funding plan, taxes, and route alignments... Those are the debates that are needed now.

 

[kEiThZ]

I present to you, two surface subways in Scarborough with zero transfers! The best part is, they already exist today. They just need fare integration.

View attachment 81271

And people kept slamming me when I said that suburban rail was important. To be honest, I'd prioritize suburban rail over even the LRT.

Suburban rail cuts downtown commutes substantially. It neuters the subway debate. And makes LRT more attractive as a feeder between. But we put the cart before the horse with the subway v LRT debate.

 

[bill r]

What Scarborough also needs:



I present to you, two surface subways in Scarborough with zero transfers! The best part is, they already exist today. They just need fare integration.

View attachment 81271

I've been there. The problem is that Metrolinx bought the route from a railway company and the route has to be railway gauge unless they decommission the route.
That forced me to be creative use EMU's that run on railway tracks.

SmartTrack 2.0 also addresses the East York issues.

SmartTrack 2.0

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/page-292#post-1109076

 

[jcam]

The subway will not be One stop. A 3rd Party is coming in to review other routes and option....Eglinton East is still going to be built to UTSC either with the saving from the new subway alignment or funding from the Government.

The only way they add another stop is if they went to a surface alignment and put in a station that supplanted a proposed Lawrence GO RER station (zero reason to have a stop for both RER and Line 2 at Lawrence...Kennedy's the interchange).

As for cost savings, no way that they'll shave enough cost from the subway to eek out the $900M required to close the gap for Eglinton East. So if they're going to ask for Fed money, I'd reopen it as the full route to Malvern and ask for the whole lot.

 

[coffey1]

The only way they add another stop is if they went to a surface alignment and put in a station that supplanted a proposed Lawrence GO RER station (zero reason to have a stop for both RER and Line 2 at Lawrence...Kennedy's the interchange).

As for cost savings, no way that they'll shave enough cost from the subway to eek out the $900M required to close the gap for Eglinton East. So if they're going to ask for Fed money, I'd reopen it as the full route to Malvern and ask for the whole lot.

We'll see about the savings.. How can either of us say for sure? I do believe there will be major cost savings in areas which can be elevated and I hope they find a way to elevate the majority of it. If you can do it or LRT you can do it for subway. And I fully Agree GO RER would not be needed on Lawrence .

 

[WislaHD]

The only way they add another stop is if they went to a surface alignment and put in a station that supplanted a proposed Lawrence GO RER station (zero reason to have a stop for both RER and Line 2 at Lawrence...Kennedy's the interchange).

As for cost savings, no way that they'll shave enough cost from the subway to eek out the $900M required to close the gap for Eglinton East. So if they're going to ask for Fed money, I'd reopen it as the full route to Malvern and ask for the whole lot.

I think elevated McCowan alignment could probably get us stations at Lawrence, Sheppard and Eglinton/Danforth under the same funding envelope as the underground.