Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[jaybe]

Ummm I think Scarborough has been "dealing" with it for 50 years. Gimme a break, I love the people who never even bothered to visit Scarborough (mostly downtown folks) not understanding just how disconnected it is to the rest of this city.

Initially I was a supporter of the subway to STC. The idea of transit equity for Scarborough made a lot of sense to me. I did what you suggested and travelled along the proposed route for the subway. Seeing all the homes backing onto McCowan with little opportunity for development was concerning. I read transit usage reports for Scarborough. I looked at maps of population density and employment. I reviewed transit options, including the proposal for improved transit to Scarborough with a one stop subway at a cost approaching $4B.

I no longer support a one-stop subway extension to STC:

• It will do little to address the need for improved transit for the vast majority of riders in Scarborough. Some 85% of transit trips that start in Scarborough end in Scarborough.
• For those who need to get downtown, the SMART track/RER proposal will be much more effective than a one stop subway. It will be faster.
• It will do little to address transit in the proposed city center of Scarborough that runs from Brimley to Markham Road and from Ellesmere to the 401. A single subway stop at McCowan will not be easily accessed by most people who need transit in that area. Much better to have a route that traverses this area from East to West rather than from South to North.

For my money (and it is my money) Scarborough should build much more transit with $4B than a single subway stop. The idea is nice. The ROI can't be justified.

 

[justindw]

You're the only one who would. They tried it in Washington DC for like 1 day and it was CHAOS...Imagine 3 years

Yeah, 3 years would suck...but if it got rid of never ending weekend closures, and cut way down on the "Due to signal related problems..." issues, I could see a pretty strong case being made. And it if we're something like, say, a major upgrade to Yonge/Bloor (which I don't currently have to take) a lengthy shut down could be understandable.

The TTC, for all its many faults, tends to be, well, better run than DC's system.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Also Cobra, remember that the SRT moves less people than many of our surface routes. The 510 Spadina and Finch busses both move significantly more people than the SRT. There wasn't any of this doom and gloom when the 510 was replaced by busses. If 510 can be replaced by busses temporarily, I'm sure SRT will do fine.

 

[Cobra]

And why does that matter, when it was expected that the busses would provide sufficient capacity during the suspension? Throw enough buses at the problem and you'll get people moving.

Ultimately, commuters on Eglinton Line will still face greater delays than those on Scarborugh Line for the duration of construction.

Also, do recall that people will adjust their travel routes to accommodate construction. So it's not as if everyone using the SRT will be using the replacement bus.

Bus services already exist on Eglinton. It's a longer bus ride due to the construction at Allen Road in the west. For longer commute, there's the Bloor-Danforth Line for those close to Yonge for a faster East-West Travel as an alternative. Scarborough has none and at this point, this is just your opinion and I respect it. Fact is, the TTC was CLEAR that replacing the SRT with shuttle buses would be nightmarish and includes additional costs and very hard logistical challenge. You're 6 minutes is "best case scenario".

This goes flying out the window as soon as there's an accident, bad weather, human errors and rush hour. Hey, if a right of way streetcar on St.Clair has bunching issues, you can't make anyone believe that the 3 year shuttle will work like clockwork...Seriously???

 

[Voltz]

SRT modernization
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ng-pr-push-for-extension-of-yonge-subway.html


https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...lect-of-scarborough-rt-is-shameful-james.html


LRT plan
Multiple sources
$1.48B

That comparison is the cost of refurbishing only the existing SRT, vs, refurbishing and extending with LRT.

When it comes to refurbishing the existing section, there can't be that much of a difference if using either SRT or LRT technology.

And for the shutdown period, they were comparing as little as eight months for SRT refurbishment, to as much as three years for an LRT refurbishment and extension. I doubt there would be that much of a difference in the end since much of the work in the existing section would be common to either technology.

 

[Cobra]

Yeah, 3 years would suck...but if it got rid of never ending weekend closures, and cut way down on the "Due to signal related problems..." issues, I could see a pretty strong case being made. And it if we're something like, say, a major upgrade to Yonge/Bloor (which I don't currently have to take) a lengthy shut down could be understandable.

The TTC, for all its many faults, tends to be, well, better run than DC's system.

You're funny!!!! City Council doesn't have the political stomach to upset downtown residents and business... Easy to say you would take it when deep down you know that would never happen. But Scarborough is far so...

"let's shutdown the only rapid transit line that's already at overcapacity...by our fault due to our shameful neglect of that part of the city and send them buses "

Like we say in French: "Loin des yeux, loin du Coeur!"
Far from the eyes, far from the heart!

 

[Cobra]

Also Cobra, remember that the SRT moves less people than many of our surface routes. The 510 Spadina and Finch busses both move significantly more people than the SRT. There wasn't any of this doom and gloom when the 510 was replaced by busses. If 510 can be replaced by busses temporarily, I'm sure SRT will do fine.

The SRT is at over capacity. Meaning it cant accommodate the growing demand. Meaning the ridership would be much higher.

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...lect-of-scarborough-rt-is-shameful-james.html

“For many years, it has carried daily passenger volumes of 40,000 people, with peak-period passenger volumes maxed-out at 4,000 passengers per hour, due to the limited number of vehicles in the SRT fleet.”

It's called NEGLECT

By who?
Downtown Councillors who choose to neglect it and rural/suburban MPP that ill conceived it from the get go. And people here waste their time blaming Scarborough residents for pushing back...Unbelievable...

UT...Get over yourself.

With the new costs for both LRT and Subway, fighting to get those 3 stops backs makes more sense than that 1 stop subway folly. Wake up, reverting to LRT won't happen and that's a bunch of politician's fault, not Scarborough residents.

Pick another target

 

[salsa]

The great shame is these polarized reporters and transit "advocates" could give a crap about integrating Scarborough.

Why should "transit advocates" support spending $billions more on a plan that provides less transit? Why should tens of thousands of commuters be happy about being relegated to same industrial park bus routes that they use today, after being promised rapid transit for so many years? By the way, you are on record for supporting the LRT provided that it was part of a larger well integrated local network, am I right? So I don't know why you became so riled up over a transfer at a Kennedy which many of those SRT riders will still be using anyway to connect to Crosstown East, West and GO transit. I will always prefer to have as few transfers as possible, but there comes a point that spending $billions more just to eliminate a transfer at the expense of other transit projects is not worth it.

Just to be clear, my position is that the sheppard subway transfer should be eliminated, so we agree on that one. I preferred the SRT conversion to LRT because it would have provided rapid transit to Centennial college and north-east Scarborough that has some of the worst commute times. At almost 12 km, it could have been quite a substantial line too compared to the current stub, but I am not under any illusion that politically this plan can be revived. I could have supported the "optimized" 1 stop subway when it meant getting the Crosstown east extension along with it, but now it's unlikely that it will be built either since all the money is literally going towards a hole in the ground that keeps getting deeper and more expensive. Therefore I cannot support this subway under any circumstances until they find ways to drastically cut down it's insane cost by bringing it above ground. Then there's still the question of serving north-east Scarborough, so perhaps they should consider doing that with the Sheppard LRT. Have it turn south to STC then continue east to Malvern on the same elevated alignment that the SRT light rail plan would have used.

Here's a map of what I'm talking about. Am I being fair to Scarborough, or am I still a hater?

Hopefully this last gasp opportunistic effort for transfer LRT and we can move on finally.

What opportunistic effort? Writing a review of a transit report that just came out (which he always does) is not gonna change anything, and he made it quite clear that it's extremely unlikely that the LRT plan would be revived. From his own words, "the point was to show what the LRT plan had been because there has been a lot of mis-information about it." So if you disagree with a specific point he made, then why can't you just talk about it rather than completely dismissing the whole article and making sweeping accusations about him that are not true.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Fact is, the TTC was CLEAR that replacing the SRT with shuttle buses would be nightmarish and includes additional costs and very hard logistical challenge. You're 6 minutes is "best case scenario".

The time quoted wasn't best-case scenario, but average scenario. Often times the delay will be shorter, other times it will be greater.

This goes flying out the window as soon as there's an accident, bad weather, human errors and rush hour. Hey, if a right of way streetcar on St.Clair has bunching issues, you can't make anyone believe that the 3 year shuttle will work like clockwork...Seriously???

Like I said, many bus routes that move more people than the SRT work fine. The 510 Spadina has greater ridership than the SRT, and Spadina Avenue didn't implode when it was replaced by busses. The people who use the Finch West bus, which also moves more people than the SRT, will be dealing with their own slow downs (probably greater in magnitude than the SRT shutdown) as well. Yonge Line will soon shut down for an extended period for trackbed construction and to accommodate the Eglinton LRT, and that is the single most used transit line in North America. This is in addition to the recent slow orders that have been in place the past month, which have delayed trips for a greater period of time than what is anticipated for the SRT replacement. If Spadina, Finch, Eglinton, St. Clair and Yonge can deal with it, so can Scarborough. Why of all the infrastructure related delays in this city, is Scarborough the one that we feel we need to bend over backwards to minimize?

For longer commute, there's the Bloor-Danforth Line for those close to Yonge for a faster East-West Travel as an alternative.

Traveling all the way to Danforth is more difficult and longer than taking the bus through the construction disruptions at Leslie, Yonge and Allen.

Bus services already exist on Eglinton. It's a longer bus ride due to the construction at Allen Road in the west. For longer commute, there's the Bloor-Danforth Line for those close to Yonge for a faster East-West Travel as an alternative. Scarborough has none and at this point

There are several travel alternatives existing in Scarborough. There is the Sheppard Subway, GO Transit, any one of the many Eglinton/Kingston Rd buses (such as 86 Scarborough), or they can travel to Yonge by bus. And as someone who traveled from Scarborough to downtown for years, I can tell you that both the Eglinton/Kingston busses (e.g. 198 Rocket), or travelling all the way from east Scarborough to Lawrence or York Mills Station by bus were generally faster options than the SRT (seriously, check it out in Google Maps).

 

[Palma]

There's a reason pro LRT councillor went subway on that vote when Ford was around. It was the TTC contingency scenario that sway council. TTC didn't hide how nightmarish it would be to shutdown the SRT for 3 years. They clearly wanted nothing to do with it...who can blame them

how is it any different with eglinton crosstown construction? Cars are down to 1 lane and shared with buses. In the future (say 20 years) if the crosstown were to be shut down for any reason people will say "oh the caos". But then all they need to do is think back when there was no crosstown but only buses along Eglinton. What did passengers do on Yonge when streetcar shut down for subway construction? People need to get a reality check

 

[justindw]

You're funny!!!! City Council doesn't have the political stomach to upset downtown residents and business... Easy to say you would take it when deep down you know that would never happen. But Scarborough is far so...

"let's shutdown the only rapid transit line that's already at overcapacity...by our fault due to our shameful neglect of that part of the city and send them buses "

Like we say in French: "Loin des yeux, loin du Coeur!"
Far from the eyes, far from the heart!

We do deal with shut downs of street cars on a pretty regular bases for massive amounts of track work. This is something downtown does deal with (and, no, someone coming in from, say, Liberty Village doesn't really have a lot of options).

So, deep down, no, I really don't know that.

Please do continue to assert I'm lying though.

 

[salsa]

To be fair, that was 60 years ago. Second, they did it right from the get go. If Scarborough RT was done right from the get go, we wouldn't be in this mess. I'm still shocked and amazed how people in this forum are so critical of Scarborough and it's residents when it was a bunch of downtown councillors and suburbs/rural MPPs that screwed Scarborough from the get go...and you people are surprised at the residents' backlash????

You guys are too much and are sounding more and more ridiculous.

Excuse me, but before you accuse people of being ridiculous why don't you actually inform yourself instead of making up revisionist history. You should know that the SRT was originally supposed to be a light rail line. It wasn't downtown who decided to impose ICTS technology, it was the province. If it wasn't for them, we wouldn't be here discussing about shutting down the SRT in order to convert to light rail.

I'm still shocked and amazed how people in this forum are so critical of Scarborough and it's residents

Most of us here are critical of the political leadership, not the actual residents.

 

[rbt]

Also, do recall that people will adjust their travel routes to accommodate construction. So it's not as if everyone using the SRT will be using the replacement bus.

Sure they will. Damn near all of them take the bus to SCC; they simply won't get off the bus at the SCC stop and instead will get off at Kennedy. It's entirely possible, with a couple dedicated lanes (during construction only), the majority will have a better trip than with the SRT.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Sure they will. Damn near all of them take the bus to SCC; they simply won't get off the bus at the SCC stop and instead will get off at Kennedy. It's entirely possible, with a couple dedicated lanes (during construction only), the majority will have a better trip than with the SRT.

This is exactly what I and thousands of other people do every day when commuting in Scarborough. Or taking the bus all the way to Yonge.

 

[drum118]

Would it be possible to electrify the Stouffville line first to reduce disruption?

Electifying the Stouffville line will cause no disruption on the SRT line, other than the tunnel section.

Now, if you convert the SRT to Tram-Train/RER, the Stouffville corrdior will support 4 tracks in the SRT area and redudce the cost and need to rebuild the existing tunnel, other than burying it.

At the same time, you could open the existing SRT in phases while the new exspansion section is under construction to the point that the final phase of the SRT would open at the same time as the new expansion is ready to open. So that 3 year of totally shut down boils down to a small section of the existing system that would see 3 year closure. Ends up being a win win for a lot of riders.