TTC/Metrolinx: Scarborough Subway Extension

[W. K. Lis]

did we ever pay that cancellation fee for the lrt order when we decided to build the subway instead. Or if we reverted would we save that money?

Think we're still waiting for the prototype first.

 

[WislaHD]

Forcing transfers on the same corridor happens on other transit systems as well, some which we consider world class.

We can't just extend the subway outward forever...there will have to be a same direction transfer at some point.

Yah, but usually they are at more logical points where ridership drops significantly.

On the Sheppard corridor, that would be after Kennedy/Agincourt GO.

In Scarborough corridor, that would be STC (seeing as we gerrymandered Scarborough's bus routes to feed into STC).

In both cases, the LRT to subway transfer would mean much of the ridership has a forced transfer.

 

[LNahid2000]

On the Sheppard corridor, that would be after Kennedy/Agincourt GO.

The Sheppard corridor barely has ridership outside of rush hour as it is.

In Scarborough corridor, that would be STC (seeing as we gerrymandered Scarborough's bus routes to feed into STC).

We could easily change bus routes to feed into somewhere else if we wanted.

 

[andrewpmk]

Think we're still waiting for the prototype first.

The LRVs went to Hamilton and Hurontario.

 

[robmausser]

Forcing transfers on the same corridor happens on other transit systems as well, some which we consider world class.

We can't just extend the subway outward forever...there will have to be a same direction transfer at some point.

Also a lot more people will have to take a bus and transfer to this one stop subway versus an LRT with 7 stops.

 

[coffey1]

Also a lot more people will have to take a bus and transfer to this one stop subway versus an LRT with 7 stops.

That's very true. Many avoid the RT like the plague & go direct to Kennedy or just drive if you can.

Also there is no such thing as 7 stops anymore with Smartrack. And a surface subway can be designed to do all the beautiful things a LRT can do and much more.

Forcing transfers on the same corridor happens on other transit systems as well, some which we consider world class.

We can't just extend the subway outward forever...there will have to be a same direction transfer at some point.

Forcing transfers to VERY short subway stubs is not happening in any healthy City. You are correct we can't extend forever. It can end at SCC as it should be connected intoToronto's main backbone.

 

[darth_freeman]

Also a lot more people will have to take a bus and transfer to this one stop subway versus an LRT with 7 stops.

Don't you mean to say: a lot more people will take a bus and transfer to the subway versus the number of people who would transfer from a bus to an LRT, then transfer again to the Subway at Kennedy.

 

[Cobra]

That was the whole point of the 3 stop subway.

• The Sheppard/McCowan station meant that all of Northern Scarborough would have converged there
• STC & Lawrence East would have got the southern 401 riders with STC getting most of the GO transit bus riders

With the 3 stop subway, it becomes debatable if Shepard East LRT is needed at all. There'd be no point to take the LRT to transfer at Don Mills just to take the overcrowded subway at Sheppard-Yonge. I even bet that lots of riders west of McCowan (around Kennedy road) would even take the bus a little bit to the east to get on the Scarborough Subway.

The Sheppard Subway would still draw riders from around Agincourt to the 404, more so if it went to Victoria Park.

If LRT could be replace by BRT, there's your extra billion

 

[M II A II R II K]

If Line 4 were extended to Rouge Hill, the length alone would get it enough riders to justify its existence. And push Durham transit back to its borders.

 

[robmausser]

Don't you mean to say: a lot more people will take a bus and transfer to the subway versus the number of people who would transfer from a bus to an LRT, then transfer again to the Subway at Kennedy.

Invariably someone would have to do this yes, but unless you flunked grade 7 math, the number of people needing to take a bus to a single subway stop versus the number of people within walking distance of 7 LRT stops is so disproportionately less that I didn't think I need to spell it out for you.

Obviously someone, somwhere in the state of scarborough would have to take a bus, yes. But much less with a 7 stop LRT vs a single subway stop.

 

[darth_freeman]

That was the whole point of the 3 stop subway.

• The Sheppard/McCowan station meant that all of Northern Scarborough would have converged there
• STC & Lawrence East would have got the southern 401 riders with STC getting most of the GO transit bus riders

With the 3 stop subway, it becomes debatable if Shepard East LRT is needed at all. There'd be no point to take the LRT to transfer at Don Mills just to take the overcrowded subway at Sheppard-Yonge. I even bet that lots of riders west of McCowan (around Kennedy road) would even take the bus a little bit to the east to get on the Scarborough Subway.

The Sheppard Subway would still draw riders from around Agincourt to the 404, more so if it went to Victoria Park.

If LRT could be replace by BRT, there's your extra billion

That's a great point. How much would it cost now for a "2 stop extension" to STC and Shep/McCwn?

And why is the cost estimate for this subway so high per km now? At this rate the DRL Phase 1 will cost much much more than the $4B that is being quoted.

 

[darth_freeman]

Invariably someone would have to do this yes, but unless you flunked grade 7 math, the number of people needing to take a bus to a single subway stop versus the number of people within walking distance of 7 LRT stops is so disproportionately less that I didn't think I need to spell it out for you.

Obviously someone, somwhere in the state of scarborough would have to take a bus, yes. But much less with a 7 stop LRT vs a single subway stop.

Ah, but that is the key fallacy though...the amount of people within walking distance of the 7 LRT stops is basically irrelevant as none of them aside from STC really matter. The vast majority of ridership will come from buses. Just look at the current SRT...it has virtually zero ridership at any stop aside from STC.

 

[WislaHD]

If LRT could be replace by BRT, there's your extra billion

Sheppard could easily be a BRT, this is true.

Try proposing that idea though and see where it gets you. Second-Class transit citizens and what not.

 

[sixrings]

As much as people don't like the idea of sheppard lrt to sheppard subway transfer at least it would be quite a bit more upscale than a BRT to Subway transfer.

 

[robmausser]

Ah, but that is the key fallacy though...the amount of people within walking distance of the 7 LRT stops is basically irrelevant as none of them aside from STC really matter. The vast majority of ridership will come from buses. Just look at the current SRT...it has virtually zero ridership at any stop aside from STC.

That itself is a fallacy as for the same cost of the subway, we could built the Scarb LRT, Sheppard LRT and Eglinton East LRT.

Comparing the build of Scarb LRT and 1 stop subway are not a fair comparison.

So when comparing these two options with the same cost, the LRT plan would be less transfers, as there would be 27 stops covering a huge area of Scarborough, 2 terminating at Kennedy.