Toronto Kipling Station Transit Hub | ?m | 2s | Metrolinx | SAI

[BurlOak]

they might not be able to do it at grade because of the condos going up west of kipling but yeah if the option is there they for sure should be doing that. a cloverdale terminus also allows for direct bus ramps from the 427 to the station and easier access to the dundas rapid transit service, also cloverdale mall is adjacent to the milton line so go train station can be moved too. I think this extension should be built around the same time as the dundas brt in mississauga because while there are other priorities it wouldnt make sense to build the brt to kipling just to extend the subway later. Im pretty sure the mall owner offered to use the land for a transit terminal a few years ago but nobody showed interest which is a mistake. The kipling terminal will need upgrades for sure theres nothing wrong with that but cloverdale is the place to build the multimodal hub for etobicoke.

I had a close look at that "condo" situation.
It is difficult to tell from Google, but there is a Gabion retaining wall at the property line and the parking garage is right up against it. There is only room for 1 track to the North of the CP tracks.
What needs to happen is to have stacked tracks. After Kipling, the WB tracks rise by 1.5% and the EB track sink by 1.5%. By the time you get to the condo, there is 6m elevation difference between then and the track can go one on top of the other. When you pass here, the tracks can unstack.

 

[drum118]

I had a close look at that "condo" situation.
It is difficult to tell from Google, but there is a Gabion retaining wall at the property line and the parking garage is right up against it. There is only room for 1 track to the North of the CP tracks.
What needs to happen is to have stacked tracks. After Kipling, the WB tracks rise by 1.5% and the EB track sink by 1.5%. By the time you get to the condo, there is 6m elevation difference between then and the track can go one on top of the other. When you pass here, the tracks can unstack.
View attachment 126908

First thing to look at there will be 3 trail tracks come 2018/19 there.

The next thing is will CP allow TTC to use the corridor now, when ML wants 4 tracks there for their uses??

How do see/plan taking TTC tracks under CP to a new south yard as will taking the tracks west??

This is what the corridor look like west of the condo shot Oct 27/17. You have enough room for 4 tracks, but no room for TTC and 2 tracks for CP.

 

[BurlOak]

1. First thing to look at there will be 3 trail tracks come 2018/19 there.
2. The next thing is will CP allow TTC to use the corridor now, when ML wants 4 tracks there for their uses??
3. How do see/plan taking TTC tracks under CP to a new south yard as will taking the tracks west??
4. This is what the corridor look like west of the condo shot Oct 27/17. You have enough room for 4 tracks, but no room for TTC and 2 tracks for CP.

1. I am not sure why the need a 3rd tail track. If it is for terminal operation, that will be switched to the new Honeydale station. What they have now is adequate provided extension occurs to Honeydale.
2. There are already 4 tracks for the part past the condo. For the rest, I some land would have to come out of those factories as they redevelop. I think it's easier to expropriate from a factory than a 25 story condo. http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2011/ey/bgrd/backgroundfile-38596.pdf
3. I am not sure if that Obico Yard thing is a done deal. Going under 4 existing CP tracks, or under 4 existing CP tracks and 2 new TTC tracks is a similar magnitude challenge. It could possibly be over. Trains are empty entering the Yards, so they could likely handle steeper grades.
4. There are 4 tracks there now. I propose the 5th track, stacked tracks, to the north of the existing.

 

[44 North]

Wonder how much benefit there'd be with single-track extensions, and branching. Or if the TTC would ever consider this. Say, one single-track extension NW to Burnamthorpe/East Mall, and a second SW to Queensway/NQueen. I guess 50% of trains could still terminate at Kipling, but the other half would be split between the two termini. I say this mostly because I feel Sherway would be a good terminus for any westward extension of Line 2. There's growth, there's a major mall, and a hospital. But also that growth and densities northward along East Mall/West Mall is pretty hefty all the way to Rathburn. So what'd be the best way of reaching both? Perhaps by doing both.

 

[WislaHD]

Never considered that. There is a lot of potential benefit to just having the train split at Kipling between Sherway and West Mall (I believe that West Mall and Dundas will be a better teminus than East Mall/Burnhamthorpe), with what appears to be little downside.

Since the split occurs at Kipling, you would inconvenience much fewer people.

 

[crs1026]

Wonder how much benefit there'd be with single-track extensions, and branching. Or if the TTC would ever consider this. Say, one single-track extension NW to Burnamthorpe/East Mall, and a second SW to Queensway/NQueen. I guess 50% of trains could still terminate at Kipling, but the other half would be split between the two termini. I say this mostly because I feel Sherway would be a good terminus for any westward extension of Line 2. There's growth, there's a major mall, and a hospital. But also that growth and densities northward along East Mall/West Mall is pretty hefty all the way to Rathburn. So what'd be the best way of reaching both? Perhaps by doing both.

Single track? As in one train at a time, alternating directions? Very low capacity, very inflexible, plus the fixed costs of land acquisition, power supply, telecom and signal installation, grading etc for a single track line are more than 50% of a double track line. So actually more $ per rider or per km. You can't build 2 km of single track for the price of 1 km of double track.

The issue for Etobicoke is, yes - the ridership branches out in all directions. Which gets back to projecting ridership and matching service to load. I don't have data handy, but if you compare ridership coming along Dundas, Bloor, Burnhamthorpe and Rathburn with current or potential ridership from Sherway, Sherway may not be the bigger draw.

There's a lot of logic to connecting Six Point to the heart of Mississauga, but is that Cooksville or Square One? It's a long way, and there is no easy straight line route. And, projected load is closer to BRT than subway, for the next 20 years anyways. Is this a fantasy discussion? Anything beyond Cloverdale gets fanciful, and very expensive.

- Paul

 

[WislaHD]

There's a lot of logic to connecting Six Point to the heart of Mississauga, but is that Cooksville or Square One? It's a long way, and there is no easy straight line route.

Think Dixie GO.

In Dundas Connects plan, Dixie becomes a dense corridor, with the highest density concentrated along Dundas and around the GO station. Very closeby to Kipling/Sherway/West Mall, so it would be a shame to not have a comprehensive transit plan that considers that potential urban corridor and transit links.

 

[adrianaliu]

Think Dixie GO.

In Dundas Connects plan, Dixie becomes a dense corridor, with the highest density concentrated along Dundas and around the GO station. Very closeby to Kipling/Sherway/West Mall, so it would be a shame to not have a comprehensive transit plan that considers that potential urban corridor and transit links.

i'd much rather spend that money on the missing link so we can have better service on milton line (which goes to the same place) and introduce go trains to the midtown line possibly, it would benefit wayyyy more commuters than a subway extension beyond cloverdale would

 

[WislaHD]

i'd much rather spend that money on the missing link so we can have better service on milton line (which goes to the same place) and introduce go trains to the midtown line possibly, it would benefit wayyyy more commuters than a subway extension beyond cloverdale would

I did not actually suggest subway to Dixie GO (although it is not terribly far away from Sherway Gardens). By all means, invest in GO-RER, especially on the Milton Line.

But, Dundas Connects is looking at Dixie GO surrounding area to be heavily intensified. It would make a lot of sense for Dixie-Dundas area to have strong connection to transit networks in Etobicoke, ideally with a multi-modal plan in mind. This could be a continuation of Dundas rapid transit (BRT or LRT) to a transit hub in Etobicoke for instance. But, the broader question for the TTC is where should this Etobicoke transit hub be located?

 

[toaster29]

A Sherway teminus would ensure development dollars for the City of Toronto. Unless Metrolinx is footing the bill, I can't see TTC choosing a route that helps make it easier for development outside of the city (like the boom going on in Vaughan near the VMC station). Much of the big box retail around Sherway is already being planned as high-density residential.

 

[44 North]

Single track? As in one train at a time, alternating directions? Very low capacity, very inflexible, plus the fixed costs of land acquisition, power supply, telecom and signal installation, grading etc for a single track line are more than 50% of a double track line. So actually more $ per rider or per km. You can't build 2 km of single track for the price of 1 km of double track.

The issue for Etobicoke is, yes - the ridership branches out in all directions. Which gets back to projecting ridership and matching service to load. I don't have data handy, but if you compare ridership coming along Dundas, Bloor, Burnhamthorpe and Rathburn with current or potential ridership from Sherway, Sherway may not be the bigger draw.

There's a lot of logic to connecting Six Point to the heart of Mississauga, but is that Cooksville or Square One? It's a long way, and there is no easy straight line route. And, projected load is closer to BRT than subway, for the next 20 years anyways. Is this a fantasy discussion? Anything beyond Cloverdale gets fanciful, and very expensive.

- Paul

Certainly costing well more than 50% the cost of a double track line, but perhaps below 80%(?). When it comes to cost-saving measures in subway building I'm all ears. These 5, 10, 15% savings do add up. And the added benefit is that we could create two lines by branching north and south, so any 80% is an even greater savings overall.

In terms of true ridership I agree Sherway wouldn't have much at all, and if reaching more transit users is the goal we should naturally go NW from Kipling. Definitely not as far as Hurontario since: a) it's too far out, and b) I'm trying to be mildly realistic. However Sherway does have the ingredients of a quasi or intermediary centre. More residential planned, surrounding industry, institution, office, and massive shopping mall (which in a way is the post-war new downtown). East and West Mall northward to Burnamthorpe don't have these same ingredients, tho they certainly have high and growing residential populations. If we do in fact put a west Line 2 extn as a med/long term priority, I think we could think outside the box for reaching both areas.

For any single track extension I'll try to look at the positives. So maybe 10-15min service to meet the lower ridership, which may not match our current TTC subway standards but is roughly on par with branched subways elsewhere. We can accomplish this with a full double-track station and a 1 train in/1 train out situation (so there's always a train waiting). Or maybe a mid-station layby between Kipling and these termini to allow passing on the way to a single-track half station. But another benefit of single-track is that it may make elevated more palatable (considering the guideway would be half the width). Hard to not to consider Vancouver that has done something similar. If 50m trains can run elevated to Brighouse in Richmond - thru an area that's fairly urban - then I think we can do 150m trains to wide open surburbany west Etobicoke.

 

[interchange42]

The City of Toronto is preparing a secondary plan for the Sherway area with a major uptick in population envision: everything that's big box now is on the table for mixed-use, including the parking lots that surround Sherway Gardens itself.

As part of the plan, there is a protected right of way for a Bloor-Danforth extension which puts a station at the southeast corner of The West Mall and The Queensway.

42

 

[steveintoronto]

After reading @interchange42 's post, I had to take notice of prior posts here, that corner of Toronto has always been off the radar to me. Many excellent posts in this string, but some points especially so:

When it comes to cost-saving measures in subway building I'm all ears.

For any single track extension I'll try to look at the positives. So maybe 10-15min service to meet the lower ridership, which may not match our current TTC subway standards but is roughly on par with branched subways elsewhere.

Hard to not to consider Vancouver that has done something similar.

I'd wondered on Cdn examples of this. It's the case on a number of European systems, and very common on LRT systems, even in North Am (San Diego has been doing this on branches for decades)

"Subways" have gotten us into financial trouble too many times, a good part of that their being overbuilt. Paul is right on cost per single track, even if for one stop, but where space is limited on surface runs, it makes a lot of sense, and build time can be accomplished far faster. I can't see the wisdom though of trying to service Miss. This has gotten us into financial and logistical trouble time and again, (to beyond TO borders) whereas two single track extensions could make sense, being serviced alternately.

i'd much rather spend that money on the missing link so we can have better service on milton line (which goes to the same place) and introduce go trains to the midtown line possibly, it would benefit wayyyy more commuters than a subway extension beyond cloverdale would

And RER, which for the investment, continues to make far more sense. By far. And faster to build, faster to ride to destination, and travel distances far beyond Toronto's borders.

Toronto needs the capital for the Relief Line and other highly pressing projects. Right now the one on my radar is King Street, which is engendering huge enthusiasm, and is by far the most apt for investment dollars as per return, and done in a few years.

I don't see how selling a full-bore extension on the western end of the subway can be justified. Something should be done, but not the status-quo extended.

 

[Amare]

If the city wants to dramatically increase population the population in the Sherway area from basically ~500, to however many thousand they better damn well provide the infrastructure beforehand or else we're going to see another complete disaster here. I hope the secondary plan includes a big asterisk on the front page which states: "*contingent on a Bloor-Danforth line extension".

As it stands right now, there is basically no employment around that area with the exception of industries and Sherway Gardens itself, while the Gardiner, QEW, and 427 are already clogged up beyond belief. The Queensway itself is really not far behind either.

They wouldn't have Metrolinx to call on to save them here since they would never consider adding another station to the closest rail corridor (Milton) due to how complex of an undertaking would be, so the only viable option would be the TTC and there is no amount of bus service in the world that they could run that could transport enough people. Add to the fact that the Kipling Bus Terminal is already operating at capacity so the TTC wouldn't be able to keep throwing more buses there anyways.

In essence, the point i'm trying to make is that this area is not ready for a substantial increase in density without adequate infrastructure. Sounds like a familiar tune doesn't it?

 

[jys]

Add to the fact that the Kipling Bus Terminal is already operating at capacity so the TTC wouldn't be able to keep throwing more buses there anyways.

In the worst case scenario, Islington(once Miway moves to Kipling) will have to do.