rbt
Senior Member
Opinion... that Tory isn't looking to beat MFP for Toronto's biggest scandal.
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Opinion... that Tory isn't looking to beat MFP for Toronto's biggest scandal.
rbt
Senior Member
TTC Annual Service Plan for 2020 (Updated)
This article is the second part of a series on the TTC’s 5 Year Service Plan & 10 Year Outlook. Just after I posted the article, the TTC replied to several queries about its content. This…stevemunro.ca
Yep, we still need more cars and BBD is definitely the cheapest option (engineering, jigs, etc. are done). However, since BBD took a loss on the current car order, they're not going to take a loss on the next one, the price is going up some.
It won't be 60 or fewer cars; public would freak at spending 50% more for the same thing as we voluntarily cancelled (they demanded total cancellation at the time, but that's long forgotten). I'd guess 100 with option for 50 more through 2035. A 60-car order would chase Tory out of the city.
If someone wants to place a bet on a TTC 60-car BBD reaching financial close by 2024, I'll happily take the other side of that bet.
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drum118
Superstar
Tell the bean counters how wrong they were not doing a 1:1 replacement in place of the current 204 on order, as well City Councilor back in 2005.
I and others like me stated public at TTC meetings as well other meetings that we need to do a 1:1 replacement to meet pent-up demand, accessibility needs and future growth, otherwise we were moving from a cattle car system to another one. Even various Key TTC personnel opposed the plan to go with 204 in place of 252.
The European systems I spoke to in 2012 were happy dealing with various manufactures cars at the same time and any issues between them were a fact of life and just dealt with them.
I had different manufacture equipment in my shop doing the same work and it was no issues getting work done and maintenance.
TransitBart
Senior Member
And this is different from buses, how? We run three electric prototypes and what four different diesels? Seven?
Steve X
Senior Member
If they get another fleet and both fleets are big enough, the complexity of having two fleets that works with the current system shouldn't be a problem. Once drivers are trained, they should be able to drive both fleets while workers need to maintain both types of parts. The cost might be initially higher to store parts and train on two different types of vehicles but if BBD vehicles continue to underperform while a new fleet performs much better, that initial extra cost would make up for the low reliability of the Flexitys. There is no point of continuing to buy lemons and not knowing they'll even last 30 years.
AlbertHWagstaff
Senior Member
Having two fleets with different equipment is nothing new - it was like that for decades in the subway and with streetcars. Between the overlap period of CLRVs with PCCs and then adding the ALRVs, there were three different types of cars running for several years. ALRVs and CLRVs had enough unique equipment that they would have required different parts pools. This shouldn't be a show-stopper by any means.
smallspy
Senior Member
In fairness.....
The electric buses were specifically purchased with the plan that they were testing them specifically to see not just whether electric buses were worth it, but also to see which of their various methodologies works out best in the Toronto situation.
When the time comes for the TTC to put in a proper order, they will not be buying a third of 1000 buses from three different manufacturers. They will be only ordering from one.
Dan
robmausser
Senior Member
It isnt. Having more buses is less efficient. But sometimes there are cost savings to be had in different fleet that negate the losses from having many different fleets.
For example if you can save money by using the battery buses in particular areas. Bendy buses are needed on some routes for ridership and not others. But the benefits have to outweigh the costs of having more mechanics, more differing parts, more complexity. etc etc.
I don't see a reason to have a differing fleet with the streetcars unless there is a benefit that negates the cost of having different vehicles for some service pattern or geographical reason.
For example, if they decided to convert the Union Loop into a switchover track that required duel-ended trains, and the cost-benefit was such that it saved money over say building a bigger loop under union, then there would be a reason to. Or say they wanted 7 module trains on Queen or King due to ridership demands.
But there is no reason being given for a different fleet like that.
The only reason we are wasting money on a separate fleet is because we ham handed the Bombardier file.
crs1026
Senior Member
It’s quite obvious that Bombardier (whose bid was significantly lower in the first place, remember) can’t have made any money on this order, between rework, a five-year factory run to do two years’ worth of output, mobilization at Kingston for a mere ten units’ production, contractual penalties, etc etc. Not to mention firing a succession of suits.
At this point, seeking more blood from Bombardier over their non-performance is merely cancel culture. Do we want to rip anyone’s hearts out on a scaffold in downtown La Pocatiere?
What Bombardier has done for the last 18 months is demonstrate that they can (at last) manufacture their product reliably. And, while the MTBF stats are stlll problemmatic, the cars do appear to be a good design.
So, I personally feel, bury the hatchet. Put a followup order out to tender, let Bombardier bid. Let the tender process weigh objectively the costs (or not) of two models vs one. If Bombardier’s bid is compelling, in terms of cost and associated factors, let bygones be bygones.
- Paul
At this point, seeking more blood from Bombardier over their non-performance is merely cancel culture. Do we want to rip anyone’s hearts out on a scaffold in downtown La Pocatiere?
What Bombardier has done for the last 18 months is demonstrate that they can (at last) manufacture their product reliably. And, while the MTBF stats are stlll problemmatic, the cars do appear to be a good design.
So, I personally feel, bury the hatchet. Put a followup order out to tender, let Bombardier bid. Let the tender process weigh objectively the costs (or not) of two models vs one. If Bombardier’s bid is compelling, in terms of cost and associated factors, let bygones be bygones.
- Paul
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Likely, the TTC is looking not only with Bombardier's Outlook streetcars in Toronto, but also Bombardier's Freedom light rail cars in Waterloo, and the light rail cars in other cities in Canada like Ottawa. With input of the experiences from here and other cities, the TTC would have better information to make a decision on which manufacture to go with.
DSC
Superstar
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I note that this thread reaching 1000 pages will just about coincide with BBD completing the order!
trtcttc
Active Member
It's been discussed in the past but with so many LFLRV in operation now, would the TTC ever switch to opening doors only when the button is pressed? In the winter, every time the door opens cold air floods in and the heater has to be on full blast to keep the car warm. They do this in European cities (even on LRTs) I'm not sure why we can't here or what is the reason not to.
robmausser
Senior Member
Sure, but they need to mod the buttons so they only work within a limited period of time after the streetcar has stopped. The reason being that what happens with those buttons is that someone will run up to the streetcar right before its about it leave and open the door, delaying the streetcar either a further 20 seconds for the door to open and close, or sometimes minutes as the once green light the streetcar is stopped at turns red and now the streetcar must wait through a red cycle because of this door dasher.
Over the course of 40 stops, even that happening 5 times adds up.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Except that's not what happens most times once the doors are closed and someone outside pushed the button it just calls for a stop request and the person just looks like they are mad at the streetcar driver for leaving them to wait for the one that is not too far behind it.
drum118
Superstar
4597 off loaded today and 4406 will be the next car on Friday at this time.
Unless 4595 & 96 have been off loaded which aren't tracking at this time, the should be off loaded next week along with 4598 and maybe 4599.
4579 sitting in the yard on the service track waiting for a opening in the service bay or a crew to test it.
Unless 4595 & 96 have been off loaded which aren't tracking at this time, the should be off loaded next week along with 4598 and maybe 4599.
4579 sitting in the yard on the service track waiting for a opening in the service bay or a crew to test it.