TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[robmausser]

^Rewelding the frame likely requires stripping the cars right back close to bare bones. So they will have to be reassembled all over. There’s your 19 week cycle time. That creates a whole new quality challenge. Especially since everything is now worn a bit from service. We’ve all taken something apart to fix it and reassembled it....hey, there are three screws left over......

Another example is if you have ever had a part replaced on your car after the f

1) Successful delivery of the TR subway car fleet, which is a sensible and mature evolution from previous H and T subway models.

The TR subway fleet was not a successful delivery

https://nationalpost.com/posted-toronto/new-toronto-rocket-subway-trains-delayed-ttc

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2012/12/04/torontos_new_rocket_subway_trains_malfunctioning.html

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...nacceptable-delays-ttc-admits/article5963240/

 

[Richard White]

I would love to ride the classics for the first time -- the PCC and/or the Peter Witt -- before the system goes 100% pantograph and are incompatible with trolleypoles.

Any plan to run or exhibit them in service again, like TTC has done on special occasions?

The Witt is likely never going to be run with passengers anymore for insurance and liability reasons. As it stands now the Witt cannot be run without a car in front and behind in case of spontaneous brake failure.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Then have a Witt unpowered and be dragged by a new streetcar in front.

 

[Richard White]

Then have a Witt unpowered and be dragged by a new streetcar in front.

Again... an insurance and liability thing. You cannot have passengers in a Witt unless it is certified to be fully operational. You cannot tow a vehicle with passengers if there are non-functional brakes whether or not it is being towed by a vehicle that does have them.

If you have the weight of the towed vehicle plus the weight of all the passengers it may result in greater stopping distances amongst other issues. You know how screwed the TTC would be if something happened while they were towing a Witt full of passengers?

 

[wopchop]

The fact that people think the damages incurred by the TTC on this contract as somehow so bad that we should retender the contract and pay up to 40% more for a different supplier's streetcars, which we will receive even later than Bombardier, is hilarious. Absolutely idiotic idea.

I also think that, unless they are seriously looking at another large order of streetcars, they should take the 60 car option. This obviously is going to depend on the current political climate. But if there is no new tender coming - take the add on streetcars at the deal price. We will pay more in the future.

 

[smallspy]

The TR subway fleet was not a successful delivery

https://nationalpost.com/posted-toronto/new-toronto-rocket-subway-trains-delayed-ttc

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2012/12/04/torontos_new_rocket_subway_trains_malfunctioning.html

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...nacceptable-delays-ttc-admits/article5963240/

They had all sorts of issues, it's true.

But when you're now talking about 5 to 10 failures a month over the entirety of the fleet, it's come a hell of a long way.

Again... an insurance and liability thing. You cannot have passengers in a Witt unless it is certified to be fully operational. You cannot tow a vehicle with passengers if there are non-functional brakes whether or not it is being towed by a vehicle that does have them.

The TTC has never said that they plan to never run the Witt again. And the fact that they've earmarked a pantograph for it (as well as 2 for the PCCs) seems to be a very strong indication that they plan to keep the three cars around for the long-term.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[nfitz]

Finish the current procurement with BBR, and ask Siemens-Alstom and others to bid on the Flexity's replacement.

Look at the recent report. Clearly it's staff's preference to continue the current procurement, with the option for 60 from BBD by 2021. But as they are projecting that they'll need more than 264 streetcars by 2023 or so, they've already done an RFI for the next round of 100 streetcars.

And Alstom declined to respond. The ten companies that responded are:

The TR subway fleet was not a successful delivery

There's been some minor door issues, but the trains were genereally on time, and of good quality.

Compare to other major orders around the world. These things never go as smoothly as one would want. And this one didn't go bad at all. The media needs something to write about - no one cares about good news. How many stories did you see about the recent Dundas/Parliament streetcar work ending about 5 days early, with the road re-opening? None? One - but no where near the front page?

Late streetcars have been on the front of the Star now for 2 days. Where are the stories about all the new buses arriving on time?

 

[Admiral Beez]

The fact that people think the damages incurred by the TTC on this contract as somehow so bad that we should retender the contract....

I suppose one POV could be that the self inflicted damage Bombardier has done to themselves, evident by the lack of any streetcar orders from the USA, where the streetcar market is booming, is punishment enough. I'm not there yet, but I can appreciate the POV.

How many stories did you see about the recent Dundas/Parliament streetcar work ending about 5 days early, with the road re-opening? None? One - but no where near the front page?

Early, is not on schedule. You don't get kudos for sandbagging the schedule.

 

[nfitz]

You don't get kudos for sandbagging the schedule.

Allowing for contingency isn't sandbagging!

Either way, the evidence doesn't support the claim that the TR subway fleet was not a successful delivery!

 

[crs1026]

When I see the recent comments of people like Councillor John Campbell, who has been suggesting that now is a good time to bail on streetcars in favour of buses - and now Mark Towhey's piece in today's Toronto Sun, I get concerned.

This latest problem could well lead to a push to get rid of them altogether - maybe keeping the 89 or so that we have, but cancelling the rest of this order and not ordering any more, from anybody.

We need to keep our eye on the ball if we want streetcars. Now is not the time to be suggesting drastic moves, expecially since the latest cars don't have the defect, and any built from this point on won't either.

Be careful what you ask for.

- Paul

 

[wopchop]

I suppose one POV could be that the self inflicted damage Bombardier has done to themselves, evident by the lack of any streetcar orders from the USA, where the streetcar market is booming, is punishment enough. I'm not there yet, but I can appreciate the POV.

For the TTC / the public, canceling the contract is simply bad management.
1) It puts the TTC in breach of contract, and arbitration / courts could punish them with damages awarded to Bombardier.
2) it would delay delivery of more streetcars
3) newly tendered streetcars will be at a premium price compared to the Bombardier order

 

[Admiral Beez]

For the TTC / the public, canceling the contract is simply bad management.

Agreed, but I'd also say that choosing the vendor with the low ball bid without expecting repercussions was bad management as well.

1) It puts the TTC in breach of contract, and arbitration / courts could punish them with damages awarded to Bombardier.

Which is a good and fair reason to carry on with the order we've placed.

2) it would delay delivery of more streetcars.

Same as above. But keep in mind the biggest delay in delivery of more streetcars was Bombardier. Had we ordered them from Alstrom Siemens, we'd likely have more streetcars by now.

3) newly tendered streetcars will be at a premium price compared to the Bombardier order

Better build quality, design and on-time delivery costs more money, I'm okay with that.

Don't forget that Bombardier likely won't lowball their bids on future streetcars, since their original bid was based on cheap Mexican labour and production costs, zero re-work/returns and no overtime to rush deliveries. I can't imagine they made much profit on the Toronto order once all these costs are accounted for.

I think we can agree that Bombardier used Toronto as a training ground on how to sell, produce and deliver streetcars in North America. Maybe they'll get better. Otherwise they'll have idle streetcar production capacity in Thunder Bay and PQ.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Agreed, but I'd also say that choosing the vendor with the low ball bid without expecting repercussions was bad management as well.

Not to say that it is right by default - but I think the city is required to choose the lowest bid so long as they are qualified - can you imagine the uproar if it doesn't?

AoD

 

[Admiral Beez]

Not to say that it is right by default - but I think the city is required to choose the lowest bid so long as they are qualified - can you imagine the uproar if it doesn't?

Before this project yes, I agree. But now that Toronto and Metrolinx has such a strong precedent, I think the citizenry and media would support Queen's Park and Toronto City council being wary of low ball bidders in future.

Let's say in five years Toronto needs more TTC buses. We get proposals from the established players like Nova Bus, all about the same price. Except for Girardin Minibus out of Quebec, http://www.girardinbluebird.com/fr/. Their proposal has all the right touchpoints, features and benefits from the TTC's RFP, and is 40% less than the established guys. Girardin has no experience making larger buses in Canada, but the say their existing school bus plant can be used to assemble the cabs while the chassis can be made offshore and shipped in for final assembly. I'd like to think the TTC would be round filing that proposal PDQ.

 

[smallspy]

Not to say that it is right by default - but I think the city is required to choose the lowest bid so long as they are qualified - can you imagine the uproar if it doesn't?

AoD

The caveat is whether they are qualified or not. Recall in the first round of the streetcar tendering process that there were two tenders - Bombardier and Tram Power - and both were disqualified for various reasons.

If you go back in history, the TTC threw out lots of tenders from Nova and New Flyer that were cheaper than the ones provided by Orion. Why? Because they weren't technically compliant with the specs provided by the TTC.

And even then, there are ways of configuring the tenders to allow for the selection of the most qualified proponent, rather than on the basis of qualification and price.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.