TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[thettctransitfanatic]

4509 has enter service on 512 after been here 15 days. Only 6 days after its GPS was turn on and doing its first day of testing.

No Flexity on 501 at this time

4481 and 4442, as well as 4407, 4498 and 4495 are currently on 501.

 

[Maltesefalcon]

So we have roughly five weeks left in the year including stat holidays. Depending on if you count in service or delivered cars we have 14-15 left to go if I am reading the previous posts correctly.
Crunch time. Will they make it?

 

[crs1026]

Thunder Bay released two cars yesterday (Friday). Kingston is projected to deliver only two by year end.

Realistically, there are only three weeks left for the rest of the promised cars to be shipped from Thunder Bay to have any hope of being received, burned in, accepted, and placed on the TTC's books in time for year end. Not a lot of runway left before takeoff.

When talking about the year end performance against target, we ought to be talking in the same terms as the actual contract. We may individually track these in some other way, but the overriding question is, has Bombardier met its commitment? And the contract is what determines that.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

Thunder Bay released two cars yesterday (Friday). Kingston is projected to deliver only two by year end.

Realistically, there are only three weeks left for the rest of the promised cars to be shipped from Thunder Bay to have any hope of being received, burned in, accepted, and placed on the TTC's books in time for year end. Not a lot of runway left before takeoff.

When talking about the year end performance against target, we ought to be talking in the same terms as the actual contract. We may individually track these in some other way, but the overriding question is, has Bombardier met its commitment? And the contract is what determines that.

- Paul

Based on this year schedule, car 4524 is supposed to be the last car to be on TTC property by year end, yet based on your info of 2 to be pickup, this leave 9 more cars to be here in the next 5 weeks. If 2 are to come from Kingston, this means Thunder Bay has 7 more car to do in those 5 weeks.

As for meeting contract schedule, been miss by a year and some. Therefore BBD has fail 100% to met the contract schedule and subject to damages as per contract.

TTC CEO wants cars in service schedule and that has yet to be met, especially now when 4508 that has been here 19 days and yet to be seen or have a test run while 4509 went into service today after 15 days, 4510 is doing its 2nd day of testing after 10 day and 4511 has only been here 3 days. Only the odd car is seeing service under 10 day after arrival this year when it was the norm the previous years, with 15 days + being the norm these days.

 

[nfitz]

With TTC's announcement that they are only expecting 2 Kingston cars this year, it's clear that Kingston hasn't ramped up quite as fast as it should. So unlikely they'll make their Q4 target. I think that's the first quarter in 5 that they've missed significantly (they were 1-2 short in Q1 and Q2, but 3 over in Q3 - hard to quibble over a couple of days).

As for meeting contract schedule, been miss by a year and some. Therefore BBD has fail 100% to met the contract schedule and subject to damages as per contract.

I'm not sure why you are repeating ancient history here. Yes, the 2015 to 2017 schedules were completely missed. Thunder Bay production speed has been excellent for over a year now, meeting the published schedules for Q1 through Q3 2018, or within a few days, and then catching up.

With 43 cars in service Q1 to Q3 that's an average of 14.3 cars per quarter. Q4 2017 was similar with 14 cars in service (and 15 cars shipped). That's a full year of consistent Thunder Bay production.

 

[bbdfollower]

With TTC's announcement that they are only expecting 2 Kingston cars this year, it's clear that Kingston hasn't ramped up quite as fast as it should. So unlikely they'll make their Q4 target. I think that's the first quarter in 5 that they've missed significantly (they were 1-2 short in Q1 and Q2, but 3 over in Q3 - hard to quibble over a couple of days).

I'm not sure why you are repeating ancient history here. Yes, the 2015 to 2017 schedules were completely missed. Thunder Bay production speed has been excellent for over a year now, meeting the published schedules, or within a few days, and then catching up.

With such overly-sensational, biased, and cherry-picked comments it merely makes one question anything you write!

I’ve often wondered this but never had confirmation, what exactly does the contract say regarding the inter year deliveries? Yes, they blew a bunch of them, but do we know what the contractual agreement was for those deliveries? Ive always through that the end of 2019 was the most important delivery deadline and we still have a long way to go before we see whether they get the entire order delivered against that deadline. Is the contract public and available somewhere for us to read through?

 

[crs1026]

I’ve often wondered this but never had confirmation, what exactly does the contract say regarding the inter year deliveries? Yes, they blew a bunch of them, but do we know what the contractual agreement was for those deliveries? Ive always through that the end of 2019 was the most important delivery deadline and we still have a long way to go before we see whether they get the entire order delivered against that deadline. Is the contract public and available somewhere for us to read through?

I don't believe the contract is in the public domain (although it might be, one day, should litigation happen). But as others note, there have been so many subsequent revisions, unmet promises, restated subpromises, and (no doubt) lawyers' letters exchanged, that the original text is probably only of interest to historians.

I said this badly in the post above - to clarify, I have to agree with @drum118 that at this point, the only meaningful measure of delivery performance is the TTC CEO's tally.The TTC's view is the most credible, and it's the picture that matters. I believe (correct me if I'm misreading) the CEO's tally reflects accepted vehicles, as opposed to delivered vehicles.

- Paul

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Today was the first time that Flexities ran on a Saturday on 501, which I guess was to make up the difference of there being no Flexities on 501 on Thursday and Friday.

 

[DSC]

Today was the first time that Flexities ran on a Saturday on 501, which I guess was to make up the difference of there being no Flexities on 501 on Thursday and Friday.

I doubt there is any direct correlation between no flexities on Days 1 and 2 and flexities on Day 3. They have been clear that they will use them when they have extras (after filling needs of the 'full flexity' routes like 504 and 512) and apparently they had some on Saturday so they sent them out.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Also, just off a Flexity on 501. Met an older woman who was having hard time paying her cash fare while getting transfer. I showed her how. Had it not been for me, she likely wouldn't have paid her fare. Just goes to show why the machines should have been designed better.

 

[DSC]

Also, just off a Flexity on 501. Met an older woman who was having hard time paying her cash fare while getting transfer. I showed her how. Had it not been for me, she likely wouldn't have paid her fare. Just goes to show why the machines should have been designed better.

Not quite sure how they could have made them better but I certainly agree that they DO confuse people. I have certainly seen many people simply giving up but, of course, these are not all 'lost fares' as they will have to pay if they are going to most subway stations. Once we get rid of paper tickets and tokens the options will be less (use PRESTO or pay cash at a machine) so the machines ought to be easier to work out. There are also supposed to be more on-street fare vending machines.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Not quite sure how they could have made them better but I certainly agree that they DO confuse people. I have certainly seen many people simply giving up but, of course, these are not all 'lost fares' as they will have to pay if they are going to most subway stations. Once we get rid of paper tickets and tokens the options will be less (use PRESTO or pay cash at a machine) so the machines ought to be easier to work out. There are also supposed to be more on-street fare vending machines.

I mean, you are correct in the sense about the machines better, but I have seen this going on along my line ( 504A ) for awhile. For TTC, lost fares from stuff like this aren't easy to gain back. Maybe the machines need audio directions to instruct people ? Not sure exactly how they would do that, though.

 

[DSC]

lost fares from stuff like this aren't easy to gain back.

Obviously they do not ever get back unpaid fares (unless that trip includes a subway/bus ride when it will be paid a bit late) but people who TRY to use a machine are clearly willing to pay so if (when?) it's easier they will do so. A far larger problem are the people who simply do not intend to pay and unless there are more (and/or more obvious) fare inspectors they will not start paying. I am not a huge TTC user but I have not even seen a fare inspector for months and am unclear if they even try to inspect on streetcar replacement buses (which are marked Proof of Payment in effect). Obviously they do not need to check 100% of people or vehicles but ....

 

[W. K. Lis]

Obviously they do not ever get back unpaid fares (unless that trip includes a subway/bus ride when it will be paid a bit late) but people who TRY to use a machine are clearly willing to pay so if (when?) it's easier they will do so. A far larger problem are the people who simply do not intend to pay and unless there are more (and/or more obvious) fare inspectors they will not start paying. I am not a huge TTC user but I have not even seen a fare inspector for months and am unclear if they even try to inspect on streetcar replacement buses (which are marked Proof of Payment in effect). Obviously they do not need to check 100% of people or vehicles but ....

If we had more visible fare inspectors, they could actually help people pay their fare. Especially, when they "look" lost versus those trying to hide from them.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Obviously they do not ever get back unpaid fares (unless that trip includes a subway/bus ride when it will be paid a bit late) but people who TRY to use a machine are clearly willing to pay so if (when?) it's easier they will do so. A far larger problem are the people who simply do not intend to pay and unless there are more (and/or more obvious) fare inspectors they will not start paying. I am not a huge TTC user but I have not even seen a fare inspector for months and am unclear if they even try to inspect on streetcar replacement buses (which are marked Proof of Payment in effect). Obviously they do not need to check 100% of people or vehicles but ....

Saw fare inspectors at Dundas West Station for 505 replacement buses on Saturday. At the same time, there were none for 504A. But, before that, I had only seen them doing 504A, and that's the few times I take trips during rush hour.