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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

Leo_Chan

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Is the second production line for the Flexity Outlooks online yet? If this second (third?) order goes through, they better get 2 more productions lines built and online.
 

drum118

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Is the second production line for the Flexity Outlooks online yet? If this second (third?) order goes through, they better get 2 more productions lines built and online.
The 3rd production lines is to start in Oct this year.

They need the 3rd line if the want to fulfill the current order next year, otherwise it will be 2020. Then there will be an add on for 10 extra cars as payment for all the back charges and crap.

One hopes TTC has learn they need to add a stronger clause and higher cost for late delivery on all future orders after this mess, regardless who it is.

Once BBD fulfill Edmonton and Metrolinx, as well TTC, they will have nothing on the books to fulfill those production lines. They will not pickup another order for streetcars in NA, other than Quebec over this mess. Maybe TTC next order and one hopes not.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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Maybe TTC next order and one hopes not.
I think a lot more of the desion on who tyhey go with will be do they want to go through a design and testing process again with a new company or would they rather stick with somone that has the drewings and lines alredy done up for a curent fleet that they aren't having any major peroblems with the veichles. Switching to a new manufature may mean we don't see new vechles for another few years wher as if we saty with Bomabrier they can just keep up the esiting lines that thye have alredy built.
 

drum118

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I think a lot more of the desion on who tyhey go with will be do they want to go through a design and testing process again with a new company or would they rather stick with somone that has the drewings and lines alredy done up for a curent fleet that they aren't having any major peroblems with the veichles. Switching to a new manufature may mean we don't see new vechles for another few years wher as if we saty with Bomabrier they can just keep up the esiting lines that thye have alredy built.
Well, Minneapolis has BBD and Siemens car and have been Siemens since BBD screw up their order like TTC. Very common to see more than one suppliers to system world wide.

How many suppliers has Boston seen for their fleet???

What is TTC to do if BBD exit the market or merge with another company during the tender stage or building stage??

Based on what I have seen first hand and depending who the other 4 bidders are, a new supplier will be a step up from what we got today.

Depending on when the contract is awarded, TTC could see a prototype car late 2022 or early 2023, with production cars start arriving in 2024. Time is tie to when TTC can get funding for these cars. If BBD does win the order, 2023 would see the production started.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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Well, Minneapolis has BBD and Siemens car and have been Siemens since BBD screw up their order like TTC. Very common to see more than one suppliers to system world wide.

Other systems have the luxury of going with other manufacturers because not as much customization is necessary for them or the system is being built from the ground up with them in mind. For example, Sydney's new LRT line will have sections in downtown Sydney where the power will be drawn from the ground instead of from overhead wires, most likely because Seamans want to showcase that technology to other cities.

What is TTC to do if BBD exit the market or merge with another company during the tender stage or building stage??
negotiate with whoever takes them over as they will still have the plans on file just like how Bombardier has everything on file from UTDC which is why they are doing most of the work to keep the SRT trains running.

Based on what I have seen first hand and depending who the other 4 bidders are, a new supplier will be a step up from what we got today

I only see another building being given the job if the TTC is confident that they can supply a vehicle that will cover all of their demands. Don't forget the TTC network is an existing network that was designed for much smaller streetcars and not everyone can build one that can handle everything.
 
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dowlingm

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The way the polls are going, might be better off just putting out a tender and waiting because Doug Ford isn’t likely to throw a billion on the table for streetcars.
 

Admiral Beez

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BBD seems to have worked out the production kinks, so I see no reason not to order the additional vehicles from them. Going with another supplier would add years of delay. Torontonians desperately need these additional vehicles today.
JMFC, if we give another streetcar project to Bombardier our city will look like the biggest fools. Fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice.... Surely we must see that the REASON Bombardier is the cheaper option is that they low ball their bids, knowing they can deliver late and with shoddy initial quality and Toronto keeps coming back for more.

Unlike the first round of streetcars, there are now competitors building streetcars in North America. Heck, Alstrom is likely to build a plant here in the GTA, not Sahagún/Thunder Bay.

Alstom to build Metrolinx LRT cars in Toronto, will create 120 jobs
https://globalnews.ca/news/3929485/alstom-metrolinx-light-rail-vehicle/
 

smallspy

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I want to forum's thoughts on this. Is it worth starting up an effort to make sure that the TTC preserves at least 1 ALRV for heritage service, to ensure they aren't all scrapped? Maybe get a councillor to put forward a motion? Brad Ross had indicated in twitter awhile back that they may all get scrapped. Would be a damn shame. We all know that they could get a pantograph if needed.

The TTC will be keeping at the very least a pair of CLRVs. They are also going to be donating a fair amount of equipment to various museums across the continent, including Halton County in Rockwood. And at this point, HCRY is counting on receiving an ALRV.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 

Richard White

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The TTC will be keeping at the very least a pair of CLRVs. They are also going to be donating a fair amount of equipment to various museums across the continent, including Halton County in Rockwood. And at this point, HCRY is counting on receiving an ALRV.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I wonder if they can retrofit a coupler on it for posterity and functionality purposes.
 

Richard White

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JMFC, if we give another streetcar project to Bombardier our city will look like the biggest fools. Fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice.... Surely we must see that the REASON Bombardier is the cheaper option is that they low ball their bids, knowing they can deliver late and with shoddy initial quality and Toronto keeps coming back for more.

Unlike the first round of streetcars, there are now competitors building streetcars in North America. Heck, Alstrom is likely to build a plant here in the GTA, not Sahagún/Thunder Bay.

Alstom to build Metrolinx LRT cars in Toronto, will create 120 jobs
https://globalnews.ca/news/3929485/alstom-metrolinx-light-rail-vehicle/

It makes sense to finish off the order with Bombardier. If you go to another company there needs to be a design, testing and commissioning phase. If Bombardier finishes off the order you pump out the same cars with all the bugs worked out. Using Bombardier will result in the cars being produced alot faster.

I say finish off the run of flexities and order new stock elsewhere.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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It makes sense to finish off the order with Bombardier. If you go to another company there needs to be a design, testing and commissioning phase. If Bombardier finishes off the order you pump out the same cars with all the bugs worked out. Using Bombardier will result in the cars being produced alot faster.

I say finish off the run of flexities and order new stock elsewhere.

You relly seem to be contradicting yourself here. I the end of the first paragraph you sate the obvious reason for sticking with Bombardier and then in the last sentence you want to start the whole design, test and build process all over gain. Unlike with other cities because of the or existing network we can't just get something off the shelf completely any manufacturer other then Bombardier will need to start from the ground up and it will just mean we will have them later.
 

Richard White

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You relly seem to be contradicting yourself here. I the end of the first paragraph you sate the obvious reason for sticking with Bombardier and then in the last sentence you want to start the whole design, test and build process all over gain. Unlike with other cities because of the or existing network we can't just get something off the shelf completely any manufacturer other then Bombardier will need to start from the ground up and it will just mean we will have them later.

What I was trying to say was once the order of flexities is complete i.e. we don't need or want anymore, go with another company.

Until such time as we are bursting at the seams with flexities or they are so outdated we need new cars it makes no sense to go with another company.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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What I was trying to say was once the order of flexities is complete i.e. we don't need or want anymore, go with another company.
That's the thing the TTC does want more streetcars and if Bombardier can get them faster because they already have lines set up to do it why would you go with another company. If they go with another company instead of getting them staring in 2020 we would have to wait until 2023 o longer well they go through a test and design process with another company. Swapping compies for 100 more streetcars doesn't make any sense with the TTC order. Sure other cities do that but they don't have existing networks to deal with or they don't have tight corners and loops or steep hills to negotiate either

Until such time as we are bursting at the seams with flexities or they are so outdated we need new cars it makes no sense to go with another company.
Yeah in like 20 or 30 years from now.
 

Richard White

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That's the thing the TTC does want more streetcars and if Bombardier can get them faster because they already have lines set up to do it why would you go with another company. If they go with another company instead of getting them staring in 2020 we would have to wait until 2023 o longer well they go through a test and design process with another company. Swapping compies for 100 more streetcars doesn't make any sense with the TTC order. Sure other cities do that but they don't have existing networks to deal with or they don't have tight corners and loops or steep hills to negotiate either


Yeah in like 20 or 30 years from now.

What we need is an order of 700 cars akin to the PCC fleet we had.
 

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