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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

Allandale25

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10 disappointing things we now know about the TTC’s new streetcars

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/sta...e-now-know-about-the-ttcs-new-streetcars.html

Munro's counter points here:

1. Speed. A lot depends on the operator. I have been on cars where ops have flown down the street, and on others where I suspect a newbie is in charge and isn't confident yet of the car. 1a. Also there's a TTC focus on safety that can get a bit carried away with itself, and does not appear to apply to bus operators who are much more aggressive with their vehicles;

2. Doors. The TTC does not appear to have settled on a standard way to operate the doors, and often ops leave them all open rather than letting passengers activate them as needed. Partly this is due to running in mixed traffic where a would-be rider ... 2a. ... stuck in the curb lane unable to board could be in trouble if they can't board the streetcar. Some ops have figured out that activating but not opening the doors works better, especially to keep cool air inside in the summer (and out in the winter);

3. King and Sumach. The problem here is less with the doors than with the traffic signal design which does not give transit priority to the degree it needs. With a three-way signal and nearside stops, it is likely that a signal will turn red while a car handles passengers 3a. Then it's in a long wait for the next cycle;

4. 100 foot cars and turns. Yes. This is a challenge. Again, a big problem with signal priority which is not present at many locations.

5. Fare evasion. It is a problem on all vehicles and is caused by the combination of all-door loading together with a relatively small enforcement staff whose locations are fairly predictable.

6. On board ticket machines. These machines are inherently slow and unreliable. Originally, the idea was to have these at major stops along the routes, but that was only implemented in a few locations. Even if the machine works, it cannot handle the transaction volume 6a. ... and if it's broken, a crowded car makes it impossible to get to the alternative machine. Andy Byford's opinion of Presto off the record was scathing, but he couldn't do anything about it publicly due to political pressure;

7. Seating for 70 but not standing for 181. That 250 total is a Bombardier fiction that simply cannot be achieved. For the purposes of service design the TTC aims for an average peak load of 130 (meaning some cars will have more, some less) but they do not assume 250 per car;

8. Operators in their cabins. This can be argued either way. With such a large car and with all-door boarding, most passengers won't be adjacent to the operator, and in any event they should not be distracted with questions from riders. Fare collection is already eliminated;

9. The seats. The podia with the 2x2 facing seats are a side effect of the low car design. I wish Bombardier had figured out a way to cantilever the seats out a bit to provide more leg room.

10. Windows, arm rests etc, not to mention AC, are really nice. Strollers? They can use the vestibules. Ditto for wheelchairs. There's only so much room to go around. (End of thread)
 

drum118

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4479 is up on St Clair for testing and 4477 not tracking. 4478 is in the service bay.

Never been a fan of Presto from day one.

Have yet to see the carrying capacity of any manufacture transit vehicle been met and take their numbers with a grain of salt. TTC is right to go with a low number and why more cars are needed.

BBD should look at Stadler seating system that is far better than BBD.

Turning any long vehicle will be an issue, especially dealing with pedestrians. Traffic lights and priority long out standing issues since they are only gear to traffic in the first place.

Having a place for strollers, bikes, and wheelchairs long over due as well having AC. A number of systems world wide don't have AC or windows that open. TTC has never had AC on streetcars until now and one reason I like the windows on the PCC's over the current exiting fleet.

Everyone seems they have to reinvent the wheel for TTC and other NA systems, when there are wheels that will work here at a lower cost and work a lot better than what we have today.
 

UD2

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  • I’ve never understood why they don’t just install interac tap devices. We already have the tap enabled credit and debit cards in our pockets.

It will take 5 to 15 seconds per tap for transaction to go through, slowing down boarding and station entry.

No way for children and people with low credit scores to use the integrated payment method.

People at their credit limit can’t travel home.

Need to pay credit card companies to collect information on customer travel pattern.

Problems go on.
 

rbt

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It will take 5 to 15 seconds per tap for transaction to go through, slowing down boarding and station entry.

Absolutely unnecessary; it's not a $50 purchase (nor does it take 5 seconds in most retail outlets). TTC can take a bit of risk that of a small %age of trips might be made for free (they already do; it's fare fraud).

Accept by default doing local checks on expiry date and the like (transaction time below 0.1s) and process in a central location after the fact (a split second later during typical operation).

If the card fails, publish that to all machines immediately; the rider will not be able to transfer (most trips require a transfer or are bidirectional) and that card is now blocked. If we require an exit tap, the user will not be able to leave the station with that card either (install fare payment device inside fare-paid area at all stations). 1GB storage per device ($5) can block hundreds of millions of cards.


What about discounts for frequent users?

If card is valid, put a $20 hold on the card (fallback to cash fare if $20 fails). At the end of the week (or when they hit $20 in riding) charge the card for full balance owing; pay bank for that single transaction. First trip is cash fare, all other trips might be token fare.

Allow user to close their account manually (charge card + release hold) via a fare payment machine. Perhaps they can change their permanent preference for that card number there too.



What about kids? Parents don't want to deposit money into a kids bank-account so they can ride transit.

Register a card in advance (perhaps are a fare machine) as identification only. Point that identification card number at a separate payment account such as a parents credit card. Child can now use whatever NFC enabled card they have, including their phone or a TTC issued card, as identification and the payment is charged elsewhere. ID only NFC is really cheap to implement; at a few pennies per card (many agencies use disposable ones for transfers).


Yes, accept by default will cause TTC to eat a few fares this way. It's going to be pretty rare; they've certainly eaten their share of Presto fares when all machines were unavailable.


Need to pay credit card companies to collect information on customer travel pattern.

Also completely unnecessary. You think Walmart doesn't know which checkout-lane you made a purchase at because you tapped Visa at the till?

Yes, those hand-held devices that small retail uses (because they don't want to roll their own transaction processing backend) tend not to give much feedback but TTC has millions of transactions per day; they can (and did: see Presto) roll their own transaction processing backend which collects information they want.

Some customers might rotate cards to reduce TTC from tracking them (losing frequent rider points too). Of course, we have people on this forum with 2 or 3 Presto cards. Ultimately, TTC wants to know about about broader network use patterns (are those 500 9am walk-ins at Kennedy station exiting at Dundas station or Eglinton Station?) than whether an individual named Fred consistently begins their weekday commute at 8:10am at St. Clair West.


The real issue is we keep going back to Accenture for our software tech solutions without much of a plan in mind beyond "this seems nifty".
 
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officedweller

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TTC will probably activate credit card tap in a couple years after the system settles down.

TransLink in Vancouver just activated it last week - including on buses.

Our card readers accept contactless Visa and Mastercard credit cards and Apple Pay, Google Pay, and Samsung Pay. For customers without Compass Cards, this new feature means no more ticket line-ups, digging for exact change, or worrying about pre-calculating zones. You can tap a contactless Visa or Mastercard credit card or mobile-payment method on card readers to pay your adult, cash fare. Note: card readers will not accept debit cards.
https://www.translink.ca/Fares-and-Passes/Tap-to-Pay.aspx

Visa101-edit-590x401.jpg

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/...man-promoting-translinks-new-tap-pay-feature/

Which was preceded by the "Tap your Card, Not your Wallet" campaign -
because credit cards are charged at full adult cash fare, not monthly or daily discounted fares, nor seniors' or student rates.
The Compass card also provides a discounted rate.
Tapping a wallet may charge your credit card instead of your Compass card,
and a credit card does not encode information showing you are entitled to a seniors or student rate.

translink-credit-card-tap-1.jpg

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/translink-compass-card-tap-wallet-2018
 
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drum118

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4477 is now tracking

4478 out on Kingston Rd

4479 in the service bay
 

lenaitch

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So if the new streetcar(s) get stuck - I assume they would be stuck in a nice secure yard and not some one off siding in some small northern ontario town ? (heck.... even Sudbury's Yard is not all the secure..)

Not a railroader but I would assume trains will be tied up at crew change points. I'm not sure any rail yard is what I would call 'secure' (at least by my definition). There will be all sorts of stranded lading, such as auto racks, all across the system.
 

smallspy

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CP and their unions have come to tentative agreements and thus the strikes have ended for the time being. I don't think that we'll have to worry about stranded streetcars for the foreseeable future.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
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drum118

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4477 Out on King St

4478 in the yard and ready for service Friday

4479 out on the Queensway
 

drum118

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4478 is about to depart the Barns as a 504 (BRBS) and something I haven't seen before.

Looked at 4478 before leaving this morning and it was backing up to the service bay it was last in the night before. It was in another bay just before moving to the outbound track.

Strange that 4401 got ship to La Pocatiere and guess they have room and manpower to rebuilt it.

If 4480 arrived today, should be at Hillcrest Monday.

Still leaves 7 more cars to be ship from Thunder Bay by June 22 including most likely 4481 ready for pickup.

4478 is at the Lake Shore 7 days after arriving in service
 
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