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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

TransitBart

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TheTigerMaster

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There is always someone to find fault. And since Chris Hume is a professional critic, he is good at it. Much of this commentary has nothing to do with the vehicles themselves.

I'm not even sure if some of his complaints are even accurate. Like this, for example:

But it’s not all the drivers’ fault: the doors — all six of them — close so slowly, every stop becomes an exercise in anger management for frustrated passengers late for work. The doors take longer to open and close than those of the new subway cars underground.​
 

cplchanb

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I'm not even sure if some of his complaints are even accurate. Like this, for example:

But it’s not all the drivers’ fault: the doors — all six of them — close so slowly, every stop becomes an exercise in anger management for frustrated passengers late for work. The doors take longer to open and close than those of the new subway cars underground.​
Seems like a lot of first world problems and adjusting to the norms of the rest of the world...

Sorry Chris, but the days of the old school clrv are over
 

crs1026

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^ I’m not sure the cars are inherently slow, as I have certainly seen them move along when traffic permits.

But I certainly have experienced frustratingly slow moving Flexities, especially on Spadina.

I wonder if there are subtle differences that encourage drivers to creep...... for instance, at island stops where two CLRV’s will fit, a following CLRV won’t hesitate to pull right up behind the first. But if a Flexity is in the same space, the second vehicle may just creep or coast, because there is no point in arriving until the first car departs. Overall route velocity may be the same, but the passenger experience is that the car is moving slower. Just a theory.

- Paul
 

rbt

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Seems like a lot of first world problems and adjusting to the norms of the rest of the world...

Sorry Chris, but the days of the old school clrv are over

Indeed. This reads a lot like "Old Man Yells at Cloud".

Doors aren't that much closer than CLRVs* BUT people are entering/exiting much faster (no stairs). The door time is a higher ratio (thus perceived as much longer) because the other component (people walking) got so much shorter.

* Physical open/close time is longer but the delay to starting the close mechanism seems about the same.
 

drum118

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From my point of view, the LRV are faster than the current fleet when drivers drive the cars correctly, as well stopping.

I find that the cars that arrived this year offer a rougher ride than the rest for some reason. Having fix wheels doesn't help.

Doors are still a major issues and some caused by riders themselves. Ridership numbers per car will not be meet as claim.

Seen too many fare machines not working.

Fare evasion is higher and not surprise at the numbers, since you see next to no enforcement on the lines most of the times. Spadina is the worse line for evasion from my point of view. Saw 3 at Union on Sunday with a line up snaking onto the platform to catch a car that I decided not use the line and travel some where else. People gave up waiting and plan on walking to the waterfront after talking to staff.

4479 is tracking, but not 4477. 4478 has been out every day at all hours since Friday and could/should be near the end of its test runs. Its currently in the yard on track 7/8??.

If we use the old standard for in service, 4478 could enter service Friday based on what I am seeing at this time. Uselessly it takes 24-48 hours to ready a car for service after final testing is completed and past. Adding the Presto and fare machines take place at this time.
 

TransOp

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^ I’m not sure the cars are inherently slow, as I have certainly seen them move along when traffic permits.

But I certainly have experienced frustratingly slow moving Flexities, especially on Spadina.

I wonder if there are subtle differences that encourage drivers to creep...... for instance, at island stops where two CLRV’s will fit, a following CLRV won’t hesitate to pull right up behind the first. But if a Flexity is in the same space, the second vehicle may just creep or coast, because there is no point in arriving until the first car departs. Overall route velocity may be the same, but the passenger experience is that the car is moving slower. Just a theory.

- Paul
The reasons why cars move slow on Spadina are:
1. A lot of run-time
2. A lot of track switches (operators must stop at each facing switch to ensure that it is set for the intended direction of travel)
3. A lot of traffic signals
4. Busy route
The cars can actually move quite fast in the right conditions. However, when you combine all of the factors above, it can be difficult to get them up to full speed. The schedules on the 510 give the cars a lot of time to get from end to end, so that's why the operators don't fly. On the contrary, if you go up to the 512, the schedule is a bit tighter and the speed limit is higher. There are also way less switches to stop at so the cars move quicker.
 

Steve X

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The 510 seems to have gain significant ridership in the reason years. Even CLRVs can't keep up with the demand and would be slowed anyways. The 510 as well as many streetcar routes really needs gap cars to relief unbalanced demands and delays.
 

crs1026

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4477 & 4479 not tracking yet. 4478 return to the Barns a few hours ago.

There's a new shipment that left Thunder Bay overnight. Depending on how far it gets before CP shuts down for its strike, someone may be able to spot it and get the car number. That will tell us if there are any previous cars out there still waiting for delivery.

A rough ride on a late 509 even holding onto something.

Count your blessings. The same ride at Canada's Wonderland would cost a lot more ;-)

- Paul
 

Kitsune

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So if the new streetcar(s) get stuck - I assume they would be stuck in a nice secure yard and not some one off siding in some small northern ontario town ? (heck.... even Sudbury's Yard is not all the secure..)
 

Allandale25

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10 disappointing things we now know about the TTC’s new streetcars

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/sta...e-now-know-about-the-ttcs-new-streetcars.html

Munro's counter points here:

1. Speed. A lot depends on the operator. I have been on cars where ops have flown down the street, and on others where I suspect a newbie is in charge and isn't confident yet of the car. 1a. Also there's a TTC focus on safety that can get a bit carried away with itself, and does not appear to apply to bus operators who are much more aggressive with their vehicles;

2. Doors. The TTC does not appear to have settled on a standard way to operate the doors, and often ops leave them all open rather than letting passengers activate them as needed. Partly this is due to running in mixed traffic where a would-be rider ... 2a. ... stuck in the curb lane unable to board could be in trouble if they can't board the streetcar. Some ops have figured out that activating but not opening the doors works better, especially to keep cool air inside in the summer (and out in the winter);

3. King and Sumach. The problem here is less with the doors than with the traffic signal design which does not give transit priority to the degree it needs. With a three-way signal and nearside stops, it is likely that a signal will turn red while a car handles passengers 3a. Then it's in a long wait for the next cycle;

4. 100 foot cars and turns. Yes. This is a challenge. Again, a big problem with signal priority which is not present at many locations.

5. Fare evasion. It is a problem on all vehicles and is caused by the combination of all-door loading together with a relatively small enforcement staff whose locations are fairly predictable.

6. On board ticket machines. These machines are inherently slow and unreliable. Originally, the idea was to have these at major stops along the routes, but that was only implemented in a few locations. Even if the machine works, it cannot handle the transaction volume 6a. ... and if it's broken, a crowded car makes it impossible to get to the alternative machine. Andy Byford's opinion of Presto off the record was scathing, but he couldn't do anything about it publicly due to political pressure;

7. Seating for 70 but not standing for 181. That 250 total is a Bombardier fiction that simply cannot be achieved. For the purposes of service design the TTC aims for an average peak load of 130 (meaning some cars will have more, some less) but they do not assume 250 per car;

8. Operators in their cabins. This can be argued either way. With such a large car and with all-door boarding, most passengers won't be adjacent to the operator, and in any event they should not be distracted with questions from riders. Fare collection is already eliminated;

9. The seats. The podia with the 2x2 facing seats are a side effect of the low car design. I wish Bombardier had figured out a way to cantilever the seats out a bit to provide more leg room.

10. Windows, arm rests etc, not to mention AC, are really nice. Strollers? They can use the vestibules. Ditto for wheelchairs. There's only so much room to go around. (End of thread)
 

drum118

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4479 is up on St Clair for testing and 4477 not tracking. 4478 is in the service bay.

Never been a fan of Presto from day one.

Have yet to see the carrying capacity of any manufacture transit vehicle been met and take their numbers with a grain of salt. TTC is right to go with a low number and why more cars are needed.

BBD should look at Stadler seating system that is far better than BBD.

Turning any long vehicle will be an issue, especially dealing with pedestrians. Traffic lights and priority long out standing issues since they are only gear to traffic in the first place.

Having a place for strollers, bikes, and wheelchairs long over due as well having AC. A number of systems world wide don't have AC or windows that open. TTC has never had AC on streetcars until now and one reason I like the windows on the PCC's over the current exiting fleet.

Everyone seems they have to reinvent the wheel for TTC and other NA systems, when there are wheels that will work here at a lower cost and work a lot better than what we have today.
 

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