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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

Admiral Beez

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They shipped 61 - and said they could have done 2 more if it wasn't for the part issue. Presumably they thought they were going to get parts in a day or so, that could have let them ship just before 31st. Also, it means that these two are substantially complete.
That's called problem transference, and is one of my greatest frustrations in business and life. You have a problem, so instead of resolving it or predicting/planning it out of your process, you transfer it to your customer. I don't have a part, so now I can break my commitment to you, so now it's not my problem, it's yours. Same goes in life, I get stuck in traffic, call work and tell my boss I'm running late and that he'll need to put off the meeting, so now my tardiness and lack of planning is his problem, not mine.

Best way to avoid problem transference? Manage customer expectations through running your operation with the necessary contingencies to meet your commitments regardless of any but truly and absolutely unforeseeable disasters. When did Bombardier know they were missing components? Did they try to fly the parts in? Did they not have contingent suppliers in case one is late? Why are they cutting it so close with their supply chain? Surely after being in business for over 40 years Bombardier should have supply chain and production management figured out?

My guess is that BBR knows our expectations are pretty low by this point, and that Toronto is numb to further delivery failures. So, they made a Hail Mary promise knowing that if they make it they look like stars, and if they don't, well it looks like business as usual at BBR. No harm either way.
 
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KevinT

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Why are they cutting it slow close with their supply chain?

Indeed. The whole manufacturing world spent the last two decades transitioning to "just in time" delivery to convert inventory to a one-time feel good on the books that appeased Bay St., but will now spend the rest of their lives paying for it in countless other ways that are probably more expensive than the inventory they liquidated. Its psychotic.
 

robmausser

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That's called problem transference, and is one of my greatest frustrations in business and life. You have a problem, so instead of resolving it or predicting/planning it out of your process, you transfer it to your customer. I don't have a part, so now I can break my commitment to you, so now it's not my problem, it's yours. Same goes in life, I get stuck in traffic, call work and tell my boss I'm running late and that he'll need to put off the meeting, so now my tardiness and lack of planning is his problem, not mine.

Best way to avoid problem transference? Manage customer expectations through running your operation with the necessary contingencies to meet your commitments regardless of any but truly and absolutely unforeseeable disasters. When did Bombardier know they were missing components? Did they try to fly the parts in? Did they not have contingent suppliers in case one is late? Why are they cutting it so close with their supply chain? Surely after being in business for over 40 years Bombardier should have supply chain and production management figured out?

My guess is that BBR knows our expectations are pretty low by this point, and that Toronto is numb to further delivery failures. So, they made a Hail Mary promise knowing that if they make it they look like stars, and if they don't, well it looks like business as usual at BBR. No harm either way.

The thing is that the Problem Transference begins at the TTC/City Hall when they signed the most laid back contract with Bombardier in terms of late penalties.

A proper contract with huge losses and penalties for Bombardier would have solved this issue.
 

Admiral Beez

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A proper contract with huge losses and penalties for Bombardier would have solved this issue.
Not when the same company is owned and/or bailed out by government money. At best with the penalties we’d be shuffling tax funds from Ottawa and Quebecers to Torontonians, but still causing little to no harm to BBR.
 
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nfitz

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That's called problem transference, and is one of my greatest frustrations in business and life. You have a problem, so instead of resolving it or predicting/planning it out of your process, you transfer it to your customer. I don't have a part, so now I can break my commitment to you, so now it's not my problem, it's yours. Same goes in life, I get stuck in traffic, call work and tell my boss I'm running late and that he'll need to put off the meeting, so now my tardiness and lack of planning is his problem, not mine.
Everyone is well aware that Bombardier failed on the 70 and later 65-car promise.

But the text I quoted specifically said "In December 21 they thought they were going to have a enough parts and time to deliver 63 cars by December 31....yet it ended up being 59..... ... and it is not like they missed by a little....they were off by 4"

I don't care what you call it ... moving the goalposts, whatever. One can't make fun of them for missing by four cars on a prediction ten days old, when it's very clear that the prediction was about shipping rather than delivery.

Not when the same company is owned and/or bailed out by government money. At best with the penalties we’d be shuffling tax funds from Ottawa and Quebecers to Torontonians, but still causing little to no harm to BBR.
Hang on - like no one has every bailed out Alstom or it's predecessor companies.

And what about that $1 billion fine Alstom got three years in the USA ago after they admitted to bribery.

Hmm ... makes you wonder why Metrolinx was so keen to award a huge contract with no bids in violation of normal standards, at a much higher price than they were already paying for the same thing. I don't know enough about the internal politics between the Minister, Ministry, and Metrolinx, to know who to suspect on that one.

On that thought - I don't recall even seeing an external audit on the Alstom pricing - unlike at TTC, which normally gets an external audit on Bombardier's sole-source pricing. It would be fun to FOIA them about the purchase details.
 
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crs1026

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On that thought - I don't recall even seeing an external audit on the Alstom pricing - unlike at TTC, which normally gets an external audit on Bombardier's sole-source pricing. It would be fun to FOIA them about the purchase details.

Beware Newton's Law of FOI : For every action, there is a redaction.

- Paul
 

Admiral Beez

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And what about that $1 billion fine Alstom got three years in the USA ago after they admitted to bribery.

Hmm ... makes you wonder why Metrolinx was so keen to award a huge contract with no bids in violation of normal standards, at a much higher price than they were already paying for the same thing. I don't know enough about the internal politics between the Minister, Ministry, and Metrolinx, to know who to suspect on that one.
If you're going to slander a government minister, ministry and a corporation, you'd better have evidence. Or be thankful for the anonymity of UT.
 

nfitz

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If you're going to slander a government minister, ministry and a corporation, you'd better have evidence. Or be thankful for the anonymity of UT.
My anonymity isn't that anonymous.

But mentioning Alstom's well reported recent history, and wondering what might be up here, without even saying something is up, and not naming any names isn't slander. When I say Minister, I mean the Minister's Office or Deputy Minister's Office. That Del Duca would have the wits to pull something off personally seems laughable - his staff would be aware, and I don't think that level of conspiracy exists in Ontario. Though it did in Quebec - but everyone in the industry always knew that (though perhaps not just how far it spread). Toronto always seems relatively clean, with corruption being isolated individuals, often at lower levels.
 

White Pine

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I'm actually starting to wonder if Alstom's cars for Ottawa are running late. Not at the same level as Bombardier's but I'm not sure if assembly will be done by May. Coincidentally, the opening date has moved back, but the more obvious cause of this has been construction delays on other parts of the line, especially in the tunnel where the sinkhole was. Hopefully everything will be finished at around the same time.
 

robmausser

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I'm actually starting to wonder if Alstom's cars for Ottawa are running late. Not at the same level as Bombardier's but I'm not sure if assembly will be done by May. Coincidentally, the opening date has moved back, but the more obvious cause of this has been construction delays on other parts of the line, especially in the tunnel where the sinkhole was. Hopefully everything will be finished at around the same time.

I bet Bombardier is praying for a sink hole on Eglinton to delay the opening.

Might see some Bomb employees opening up all the fire hydrants on Eglinton or something of that nature
 

salsa

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salsa

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This doesn't have to do with the Flexity's and the s**tshow that is Bombardier. Munro says so right in his quoted Twitter posts.


You seem to get all testy whenever a discussion is not strictly on topic. Why don't you become a moderator?
This is completely off-topic.

This takes the award for most off-topic post on UT ever. What the hell?

Please. Stop. Those are more than 100 years old and totally irrelevant not only to today's issues but particularly to the topic of this thread.

This question isn't related to the topic of this thread at all.

This thread has gone ridiculously off-topic.

This is actually totally irrelevant to the topic of this thread which is the Gardiner Expressway.



Considering that a number of posters here (including yourself) are quick to blame Bombardier for every problem related to our old streetcars, I think Munro's point is indeed relevant to the discussion.
 

drum118

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4459 has enter service on 504. 4458 has been out since 1 am on 510 and currently on 509 for testing.
 

drum118

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You seem to get all testy whenever a discussion is not strictly on topic. Why don't you become a moderator?


Considering that a number of posters here (including yourself) are quick to blame Bombardier for every problem related to our old streetcars, I think Munro's point is indeed relevant to the discussion.
You are joking that @pstogios becoming a mod??:mad::eek: He would kill any posting that may go off track even if its a small thing in threads he is watching.

Steve posting belongs here.

Given the fact that most of the ALRV's fleet was to be scrap by the end of 2014 with the remaining to be gone early 2015, the question is why are these cars still in service and not working after major rebuilt because of BBD late deliveries??

Because of all the problems TTC has had with the A's from day one, it was in TTC best interest to scrap them as the new cars arrive as plan. After spending X dollars to rebuild 20-30 of them until about 2025, why are they not working in this cold weather like some of the CLRV's?? Can see a few cars, but the whole fleets for a day or 2 or more is only adding extra pressures on the C's, as well finding buses to cover their service. TTC needs to make clear what is happen to the existing fleet and what the cost is not only rebuilding them, but maintaining them since its extra expense out of their budget because of delays that could be put to use elsewhere than deferring X items. All those costs needs to be past back to BBD for their screw up.

Don't know if 4461 has arrived, but it and 4460 are not tracking yet. What is odd about them, they were supposed to be on the same train from TB, but ended up on different trains. Have no idea what has been ship or delivery other than up to 4460 as of Dec 27. Don't expect to see much improvement for delivery this year, let alone the failure rate.
 

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