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TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

drum118

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The idea that a place you serve with transit is not changed by the transit seems like a major issue with these assumptions, a subway extension is naturally going to make a mall a more attractive destination as well - driving all day ridership. Having heavier midday demand also sounds like a good thing to me!

The cost should be low and immediate demand for ridership should not be the only consideration, demand can be built! - forcing people to transfer to go a few kilometers is silly, if you really want a low cost solution extend the subway as a single track and make the terminus double track and run a train every 15 minutes - building an entirely independent system is not "cost effective". Density also isn't the only way stations get ridership? If that was the case Warden would not be a high ridership station - but, it is because we have buses!

People will cal the SRT crazy but a 3.5km tram isolated from any other connected rail service is not?

So "LRT" will stimulate demand etc, but subway wouldn't? I do not see why one electric rail vehicle is any more likely to be tunneled than another. This also assumes we just continue tunneling everything forever even if it's completely insane - in which case why don't we just dig a brand new tunnel straight to Square One from Bloor for the Milton Line?
I have already proposed a tunnel to Sq One off the Milton Line that has to start at Dundas as phase 1. Phase 2 would see that extension reconnecting to the Milton Line north of the 403 and west of Creditview.

This is on top of running a tram-train off the Milton Line and connecting to the Hurontario Line "IF" CP allows an OS in its corridor or use battery power.

Tunneling under that condo is the only option as well to Cloverdale as an open cut will still generate sound that ppl will complain to TTC like they over a decade for the Bloor St where it goes underground. Having said that, buyer be a wear if they plan on living next to a rail corridor or subway open cut before they buy or rent there as they are accepting the noise level.

Since TTC new yard is on the south side, you have to have a tunnel to get under the rail corridor so you are better off tunneling under the condo like I have stated a number of time.

Streetcars build Toronto, not the subway and only have to look at various stations, subway hasn't done much for the area since first built. A number of those station are seeing more development, but not doubling the current ridership for most of them.

TTC and Toronto only see 2 modes for transit and that's Bus to Subway and nothing in between. Subways are not needed all over the place as it will be a waste of money doing so.

Phase 1 would see the line extended to Cloverdale.

Phase 2 is an open end question where and depends on a number of thing, basely ridership.

As it has been noted here, Dundas in Mississauga can only justify a true BRT to Mavis Rd and become a light BRT to Burlington until Halton can justify a true BRT line even though it been in the master transit plan close to 3 decades. The balance of Mississauga west of Mavis is real low density for a true BRT, let alone an LRT Line. During the EA for the Hurontario LRT, ML call for an LRT on Dundas going east to Kipling, but was shot down by Hydro One who did not was it under the lines.

Until Mississauga deals with the blight on Dundas that has the potential to be very density corridor with both mid rise and employment as well commercial, moving to an LRT is the next step from Cloverdale to Hurontario with a subway extension around 2050-75 if then. The best I can see for stations is about 7 regardless of RER next to that will only have 2 stations.

The SRT is a province thing, not TTC when they were to build a high speed streetcar line all the way to Malvern back in the 80's. ML kill the conversion of the SRT to LRT as well the extension to Malvern that was suppose to be in operation in 2018 or 19. The extension was to be built first due to the Pan-Am games in 2015, with the main section closing the fall of 2015 to be rebuilt.
 

drum118

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It may not be connected at the start, but there's nothing stopping that in the future.
Very true.

The SRT was supposed to be a backbone for streetcars with branches off it. During the EA for the LRT Conversion, ML saw the line going to Union Station as well to Pickering.

Came upon a number of cases like the SRT on my travels this year with a few being new and most likely I miss then on the other trips.

The same can be said for a number of LRT lines in the US.
 
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drum118

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crs1026

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The arguments I am hearing here seem to revolve around "because we can" or "it's a nice spot on the map" or "it would be a cheaper route because there is nothing in the way except light industry" or "it's a nice opportunity for a more creative type of transit construction".

A more rational approach would be to say - how many people will reside in the Sherway precinct once it is redeveloped? What does that translate into in peak passengers per hour? Where do they need to be connected to? Does a subway or LRT help them much?

If the numbers justify that transit, then fine. Malls by themselves do not generate much ridership, and definitely not much peak ridership. So it would have to be the new development that creates the business case.

The only proven passenger flow that we have today is the number coming east across the 427 via Dundas and Bloor who are headed for the subway at Kipling. That number may - may - justify extending the subway to Cloverdale. That extension would definitely help reduce congestion around Aukland.

But after Cloverdale, where then? I know of no development on the horizon that would argue for Sherway as a transit hub. It's redundant as a transfer point. And it's a costly detour if there is a later need to extend the subway further. There certainly will never be a need to extend it further along the Queensway into Mississauga. There isn't much transit or comuter flow today along that arterial.

And even if there is a big development push for the Sherway precinct, it will have to be bigger than the density at Humber Bay to reach the priority list. Sorry folks, we should be bringing proper transit to the underserved and overdensified locations that already exist before we dream of building proper transit to a new precinct. Humber Bay has waited for close to two decades, a densified Sherway can wait its turn.

- Paul
 

duffo

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But after Cloverdale, where then? I know of no development on the horizon that would argue for Sherway as a transit hub. It's redundant as a transfer point. And it's a costly detour if there is a later need to extend the subway further. There certainly will never be a need to extend it further along the Queensway into Mississauga. There isn't much transit or comuter flow today along that arterial.

- Paul

 

sixrings

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The arguments I am hearing here seem to revolve around "because we can" or "it's a nice spot on the map" or "it would be a cheaper route because there is nothing in the way except light industry" or "it's a nice opportunity for a more creative type of transit construction".

A more rational approach would be to say - how many people will reside in the Sherway precinct once it is redeveloped? What does that translate into in peak passengers per hour? Where do they need to be connected to? Does a subway or LRT help them much?

If the numbers justify that transit, then fine. Malls by themselves do not generate much ridership, and definitely not much peak ridership. So it would have to be the new development that creates the business case.

The only proven passenger flow that we have today is the number coming east across the 427 via Dundas and Bloor who are headed for the subway at Kipling. That number may - may - justify extending the subway to Cloverdale. That extension would definitely help reduce congestion around Aukland.

But after Cloverdale, where then? I know of no development on the horizon that would argue for Sherway as a transit hub. It's redundant as a transfer point. And it's a costly detour if there is a later need to extend the subway further. There certainly will never be a need to extend it further along the Queensway into Mississauga. There isn't much transit or comuter flow today along that arterial.

And even if there is a big development push for the Sherway precinct, it will have to be bigger than the density at Humber Bay to reach the priority list. Sorry folks, we should be bringing proper transit to the underserved and overdensified locations that already exist before we dream of building proper transit to a new precinct. Humber Bay has waited for close to two decades, a densified Sherway can wait its turn.

- Paul
the difference is that it would be a relatively quick jog to get to Sherway from Cloverdale versus Humber Bay shores which is considerably further from any Ontario line west plans.
 

sixrings

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EnviroTO

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I can't imagine a Sherway station not being a decent performer over the longer term. It makes connections easier than Kipling, it has a mall which while it doesn't create big peaks does create a constant flow of riders as can be seen at Fairview Mall, Eaton Centre, and Yorkdale, and is slated for significant intensification.
 

turbanplanner

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I can't imagine a Sherway station not being a decent performer over the longer term. It makes connections easier than Kipling, it has a mall which while it doesn't create big peaks does create a constant flow of riders as can be seen at Fairview Mall, Eaton Centre, and Yorkdale, and is slated for significant intensification.
It's also been studied before, including for a peel expansion (I know it will never happen because of bus highway winning over for some reason)
 

T3G

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the difference is that it would be a relatively quick jog to get to Sherway from Cloverdale versus Humber Bay shores which is considerably further from any Ontario line west plans.
Again though, why? This feels like building a subway for the sake of it rather than addressing a need in the community.
 

turbanplanner

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Again though, why? This feels like building a subway for the sake of it rather than addressing a need in the community.
easier highway access to Mississauga/QEW, closer to the dixie mall redevelopment, you're going to have several condos within a 10 min range. Would also help with all the condos going up on the quneesway.
 

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