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Transit expert says Toronto must recognize transportation is a business, not just a service

I don't understand why extending the Allen underground from Eglinton to the west Gardiner is a problem, especially if it's entirely self-funded through tolls and can incorporate subway. I know it's a constant refrain, but no one can explain the barriers to this. Most of it would be under streets and parks, and the buildings in that corridor have shallow foundations, not being more that a few storeys tall. It's a no brainer.
 
I don't understand why extending the Allen underground from Eglinton to the west Gardiner is a problem, especially if it's entirely self-funded through tolls and can incorporate subway. I know it's a constant refrain, but no one can explain the barriers to this. Most of it would be under streets and parks, and the buildings in that corridor have shallow foundations, not being more that a few storeys tall. It's a no brainer.
How and where do they get out of the tunnel and where do they go from there? Is the question that pops immediately to mind...i am sure there may be more issues than that though ;) Your idea of incorporating a subway as part of the tunnel...is that in addition to the subway that is already there? Why do we need another subway right there where there is already one?
 
I don't understand why extending the Allen underground from Eglinton to the west Gardiner is a problem, especially if it's entirely self-funded through tolls and can incorporate subway. I know it's a constant refrain, but no one can explain the barriers to this. Most of it would be under streets and parks, and the buildings in that corridor have shallow foundations, not being more that a few storeys tall. It's a no brainer.
The main problem IMO is the interchanges. Having on and off ramps to city streets would require demolishing a lot of buildings to make the connection. Also cost obviously.
 
All of those issues addressed as follows:

Two lanes in each direction and a third service shoulder in each direction that is also the exit/entry lane. A simple rise to or descent from street level would suffice for exits. There are wide boulevards and road beds that allow for on and off ramps just north of Ossington and Dupont, and just north of Harrison on Ossington (between College and Dundas), and just east of Bathurst on Richmond and on Adelaide. The crossing of the rail corridor to the Gardiner can occur just east of the Ordnance Triangle, west of Bathurst.

It's also possible to provide exits to Front St.. This also provides the necessary offloading of traffic from the western Gardiner to the city road grid should the City ever decide to bury or remove the existing elevated Gardiner. I also think a subway should be included in the dig, capital costs paid for by the highway tolls running from Eglinton West following an Ossington alignment to meet a DRL station on Queen. The existing Yonge-Uni line runs southeast from Eglinton under Spadina. This would run southwest from Eglinton West.
 
The comments on this thread exemplify perfectly why transit in Toronto is such a mess. A supposed thread about transit has become a thread about highways.

There is a sad fact about transit in Toronto............it doesn't have the transit system it needs or wants but due to this endless bickering about highways, it does have the transit system it deserves.
 
New expressways, tolled and underground, incorporating subway or other rail should be part of the solution. I'm so sick of hearing that somehow our horrible traffic is a virtue because it turns people towards transit. Congestion is idling, which is terrible for the environment, business, and quality of life. Really, what transit options do these people have? RER will help, but the cost has to moderate and have some tranferability to the TTC. That's the virtue of Smart Track, if it's implemented as intended, to provide frequent, affordable, subway like service along existing rail corridors.

There's far too much left versus right politicking going on. The right don't see the value in making transit a public spending priority. The left don't see that building all forms of transportation, highways included, where there are users demanding service and willing to pay user fees, is an equally important means of delivering the transportation system we need.
Yes, you cannot ignore expressways and there has to be solutions based on pragmatism and common sence. That will invariable involve all forms of transport means. They need to be applied where needed and feasible.
 
Yes....

Not outlandish to transit fans here,
...but an outlandish idea to most of Greater Toronto.
The Average Pleb really does themselves (and the rest of us) no favours by being so vacuous on the subject. It barely registers, if at all, on election polls.

Plain fact is that the "central" highway is missing
And thank God for that. I'll remind you that it won the Ontario Davis Tories an election stopping it. (Ironic compared to my previous one comment. Amazing what a generation of instant internet ifools brings you. "Smartphones?". It appears to do the opposite.)

RER is the only way forward in the short term to have commuter rail that's frequent within Toronto at no extra fare.
Absolutely agreed, save for "fare". There's no way that will happen with the present TTC fare being matched. It's the opposite, TTC will have to match GO structure, but your point fully agreed with. It can take over two hours to get across Toronto on TTC, even including the subway. I live next to the Bloor station. Even if I have to walk back north from Union, it is vastly quicker and magnitudes more pleasant to take UPX to Union, and then walk, even up to Kensington Market. Taking the subway is punishment for sins in a past life.

I don't understand why extending the Allen underground from Eglinton to the west Gardiner is a problem
No comment needed...

Yes, you cannot ignore expressways and there has to be solutions based on pragmatism and common sence. That will invariable involve all forms of transport means. They need to be applied where needed and feasible.
I straddle the fence on this one, but suffice to say, *IF* a new major roadway/expressway/highway is built, then build rapid transit into it, so at least the justification can be made to take that expensive, filthy, disruptive massive swath of land away from communities, many of whom now don't want to own a car.
 
The comments on this thread exemplify perfectly why transit in Toronto is such a mess. A supposed thread about transit has become a thread about highways.

There is a sad fact about transit in Toronto............it doesn't have the transit system it needs or wants but due to this endless bickering about highways, it does have the transit system it deserves.
Unless i missed something, i have not seen where this thread has become about highways. Can we not walk and chew gum at the same time and include the need for highway infrastructure into the discussion with public trnsit? A recent report from the CAA came out this week stating that the 401 between Yonge and Carlingview is the most congested stretch in all of canada and the ninth most in North america. Public transit, alone, is not going to solve this problem. Like it or not the public desire for auto ownership is not and will not diminish. And there is no sign of this based on the massive investments by auto makers around the globe.

So lets live with reality: 1). That people are not giving up their cars 2). That you need to connect people via public transport between home and work place. That means developing a transit system with the mindset that will give people of viable alternative to the car insted of making motorists life as miserable as possible so that they are forced into crowded buses/trains making millions of stops and forcing you to pay twice when you cross a municipal boundary. People will use public transit If its there and if its reasonably convenient. Yes, You need to build transit first.
 
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The problem North America has is not people like Schabas who are politically useful.

It is finding people who can actually deliver built transit and other major civic projects in a timely and cost effective manner - starting at project scoping and estimation, and finishing at commissioning.

Virtually every project balloons out of control and at no point is an inquiry ever done to trace how it happened. How could there be, because projects have become so complex as to require consortia of interchangeable providers of services, and to ban them for poor performance just makes your RFP pool smaller for next time with no guarantee it will be better with the next guys. Layers of fairness commissioners and production monitors have been inserted into the process with little apparent impact.

You then have policy guys like Giambrone who advocated for the arguably disastrous choice of a 100pc LF car for TTC going out and hanging out a shingle as someone who can deliver elsewhere. Which brings us back to the beginning...
 
How and where do they get out of the tunnel and where do they go from there? Is the question that pops immediately to mind...i am sure there may be more issues than that though ;) Your idea of incorporating a subway as part of the tunnel...is that in addition to the subway that is already there? Why do we need another subway right there where there is already one?
The problem is that: the opposition to the Allen expressway (at the time) was not based on practicality, viability, costs, etc. The debate was based of vision for the city.
 
How did we go from a discussion about public transit to discussion about highways that aren't even on the books anymore? You could have built Spadina, Crosstown Expressway and still be complaining about congestion today (like everyone else who had followed such advice). Like Toronto has the worse congestion - duh, Toronto also has the largest population in Canada.

AoD
 
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I think we need to ask ourselves why we want to build certain things. On the matter of highways, are we building it to try and reduce congestion? Well, thats a fools errand, so we might as well not bother. Are we building it to increase capacity and let more people get downtown? This is perhaps more legitimate, but do we want more cars downtown? And would transit be a better way to achieve this goal?

Now a lot of people on this board, including myself, can sometimes fall into the trap of "trains will fix everything." But the truth is that our society is very spread out - we aren't Japan, or even a European country that has existing density, so our train lines aren't as effective. Our trains make help develop that density, but that takes time, and large parts of Ontario will simply never be super dense. Cars are a big part of our society. I wish it weren't true, but it is, and thats the reality we need to work with. So we need an integrated, multi-modal system.

But the fact remains that Ontario already has a really extensive highway system. Its the other modes that are underdeveloped. So why should we put anymore focus on cars when that system alone has failed, and the other systems are so lacking? Is an underground highway from the Allen to downtown, or from the 400 to downtown going to make a material difference? I agree that it would be nice to take the 400 all the way down to the Gardiner like you can with the 427, but is it needed?

The problem we face here is opportunity cost. Building one thing means not building another. It would be great if we could ace the city with underground subways and highways but we live in reality, and that just is not feasible. So we do not have the luxury of building things we want over things we need.

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One final point, tolls can pay for a highway over time, but the province needs to pay for the highway upfront. So its not so simple to say "Tolls will pay for it, lets build highways eveywhere!" because we don't have the funds to pay for that upfront cost except in limited capacity.
 
My cousin's husband once told me "the day they build a subway station near my house is the day I move". I remember this comment because I think the problem is that there is no clear consensus about what a good transit system is.

You can analyze the topic objectively from the point of view of one metric or the other but it really depends on what you care about. The transportation system is also a system and the unintended outcomes over time are as significant as the intended.

Take for example the orthodoxy now that adding highway capacity is pointless because it just creates congestion. What does this even mean? Adding capacity to a system has real meaningful impacts even if the ultimate outcome is a large amount of congestion. Is congestion itself even a bad thing? The worst thing from an economic point of view is no congestion, not heavy congestion.

Do we prioritize local neighbourhood concerns or regional economic concerns? Is the objective of the system to optimize through-put of goods and people in the city? Is it to reduce costs in the city? Is it to champion social justice issues such as equity or equality? Is it to create liveable neighbourhoods? Etc.? Public transit is an important ingredient in addressing some of these issues but no public transit solution can do so in a universal manner.

My personal paradigm is to view public transit through an economic lens, a way to enhance the amount of people and goods movement through the city region. That probably means prioritizing densely populated routes, and point-to-point rapid transit that may bi-pass local neighbourhood concerns.
 
Take for example the orthodoxy now that adding highway capacity is pointless because it just creates congestion. What does this even mean? Adding capacity to a system has real meaningful impacts even if the ultimate outcome is a large amount of congestion.
It means exactly what it sounds like. If the goal is to reduce congestion - something almost everyone would agree is important, because it negatively affects everyone, building new highways will not achieve that goal.

Is congestion itself even a bad thing? The worst thing from an economic point of view is no congestion, not heavy congestion.

You may just be playing devils advocate, but this is shaky ground to stand on. Yes, congestion is a bad thing, by pretty much every metric. Its very bad for the environment, wastes many precious hours each day, and limits economic activity. This isn't a subjective thing - congestion is bad.

You are also incorrect that no congestion is worse than congestion - you're confusing no congestion and underutilization of the road. If no one is driving on the highway, the highway is a waste of space and money - that much is true. But the ideal is to have exactly the number of cars you want on the highway actually on the highway.

Of course short of capping the number of people on the highway at once - which I don't think would work very well - this is impossible. Which means congestion is unavoidable. The equilibrium point of a highway [during rush house] is congestion. Otherwise, the highway will continue until it reaches that point. And that absolutely is an economic issue - not a benefit, because thats when things start slowing down.

Do we prioritize local neighbourhood concerns or regional economic concerns?
I'm tempted to say "A firm no." But I should probably go with "It depends."

Neighbourhoods can bring valuable perspective to a conversation, and can prevent bad developments from going through (Spadina expressway, which would have levelled a neighbourhood). But other things, no. Not at all. For example, should the residents of Pape be able to stop the DRL? God no. For one, we know for a fact we really need it. And second, unlike the Spadina Expressway, we aren't levelling a neighbourhood to build the DRL.

The needs of the many come before the local needs of the few. Thats how our society largely works.

Is the objective of the system to optimize through-put of goods and people in the city?
Yes, of course. Is this not the fundamental goal of a transportation network?

Is it to reduce costs in the city?
What costs?
Is it to champion social justice issues such as equity or equality?
Sort of? Transportation planning and urban planning are directly intertwined. I think transportation planners need to let the urban planners focus on that side of things. Transit in particular is critical for the poor, so I do absolutely think their needs are a factor. Which is why the Malvern LRT is so good - it passes through numerous high-need neighborhoods.

Is it to create liveable neighbourhoods? Etc.? Public transit is an important ingredient in addressing some of these issues but no public transit solution can do so in a universal manner.
Again, yes. Urban planning and transportation planning are brothers and sisters. You're right that the goal is an integrated network, where everything works together. But a lot of these questions you are answering are phrased as though their answers are mutually exclusive, but thats not the case. Transit can take many forms and do multiple things at once.

My personal paradigm is to view public transit through an economic lens, a way to enhance the amount of people and goods movement through the city region. That probably means prioritizing densely populated routes, and point-to-point rapid transit that may bi-pass local neighbourhood concerns.
Im not sure I agree. That seems like a cold way to look at things. At its core, its about moving people. And I don't like looking at people as just economic utility producers. The goal should be to make people better off, at its core. Everything else I mentioned revolves around that fundamental core.

Good post, you gave me lots to think about.
 

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