Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[scarberiankhatru]

The headway's are 90 seconds today??? Even if that is the average scheduled headway of the various routes on sheppard there is no way it is maintained with any useful regularity. The buses are most often held up by traffic congestion, loading at stops and arrive in packs (As a recently posted picture in this forum demonstrates). So I really don't think it is fair to compare the scheduled bus headway today with what would happen with the LRT.

If memory serves me correctly, the combined frequency of all bus routes along Sheppard east of Don Mills is about 90-something seconds...this frequency rises once routes like the Pharmacy bus split off, but it stays fairly low where the 85 overlaps with the 190.

Sheppard has bad traffic west of Agincourt but that photo is not at all typical of conditions.

It's also not fair to compare LRT only with existing bus service and not with improved bus service. Adding more/longer Rocket routes, articulated buses, adding a few queue jumps, perhaps more bus/diamond lanes, even a new exit ramp from Don Mills station to eastbound Sheppard (which alone would save a minute of travel time), etc., would all increase speed and lower travel time. This is particularly relevant for off-peak (time and direction) travel, when congestion is not an issue, or at least less of an issue.

 

[Voltz]

If you think a LRT will do more than slightly improve that bunching problem, then... you're wrong.

The LRTs will move to the end of the ROW, then stop at a light. That light could be 1 1/2 minutes to 2 minutes, then they go through the intersection, and then drop off/pick up their passengers. That gives more than enough time for a LRT from Medowvale to catch up to one going on the same route by Markham Road. And unlike busses, LRTs can't pass eachother, so they'll be stuck until they get back on schedule over at Don Mills.

Just take a look at St. Clair. It's less than 2 kilometers, and I've seen a couple instances where there's two streetcars tailgating. Imagine what'll happen on a route over 7 times as long.

The TTC does not even attempt to manage the service on the short section of St Clair that is currently running, there would be no point until the rest if it is running. There are also various differences between St Clair and the future LRT's, it is not a valid indicator of service on them

While I more than doubt the TTC will run the LRT's the way they say they will, I can say they will do better than that exaggerated scenario you gave.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The TTC does not even attempt to manage the service on the short section of St Clair that is currently running, there would be no point until the rest if it is running. There are also various differences between St Clair and the future LRT's, it is not a valid indicator of service on them

While I more than doubt the TTC will run the LRT's the way they say they will, I can say they will do better than that exaggerated scenario you gave.

Ok, then what will be different about TC from St. Clair? Other than the LRTs being bigger, I really don't see a difference between the majority of proposed TC LRT lines and St. Clair.

And let's just see when LRTs start running on Sheppard (hopefully they won't) what things will look like.

 

[kEiThZ]

The TTC does not even attempt to manage the service on the short section of St Clair that is currently running, there would be no point until the rest if it is running. There are also various differences between St Clair and the future LRT's, it is not a valid indicator of service on them

While I more than doubt the TTC will run the LRT's the way they say they will, I can say they will do better than that exaggerated scenario you gave.

If they don't bother on St.Clair what would indicate to you that they would on Sheppard East? I am curious to know. Everyone says things will be different. Can you suggest why and how?

You admit that you don't think they'll work as sold. That's not a small issue. That's huge. Given that the average rider is only saving about 5-6 minutes, if the line does not work as advertised that could actually mean worse service than the buses that work the street today. And this is not even taking into account the convenience of ridiculously short headways on Sheppard today.

 

[drum118]

If you think a LRT will do more than slightly improve that bunching problem, then... you're wrong.

The LRTs will move to the end of the ROW, then stop at a light. That light could be 1 1/2 minutes to 2 minutes, then they go through the intersection, and then drop off/pick up their passengers. That gives more than enough time for a LRT from Medowvale to catch up to one going on the same route by Markham Road. And unlike busses, LRTs can't pass eachother, so they'll be stuck until they get back on schedule over at Don Mills.

Just take a look at St. Clair. It's less than 2 kilometers, and I've seen a couple instances where there's two streetcars tailgating. Imagine what'll happen on a route over 7 times as long.

I have seen the whole fleet for St Clair at one end or the other far too many time as a bunch. I have photo's showing this.

Runtime is tooo long and you have drivers out for a lazy day causing this bunching also. I have seen drivers yelling at those lazy day drivers. Even supervisors have had a few words with them.

You get the same thing on the subway to the point trains are short turn.

At the same time, riders themselves cause some of this bunching.

It only take a driver or 2 to screw things up. This happens on the roads for buses as well traffic.

Until you have robots at the wheel, bunching is going to be a way of life.

 

[kEiThZ]

I have seen the whole fleet for St Clair at one end or the other far too many time as a bunch. I have photo's showing this.

Runtime is tooo long and you have drivers out for a lazy day causing this bunching also. I have seen drivers yelling at those lazy day drivers. Even supervisors have had a few words with them.

You get the same thing on the subway to the point trains are short turn.

At the same time, riders themselves cause some of this bunching.

It only take a driver or 2 to screw things up. This happens on the roads for buses as well traffic.

Until you have robots at the wheel, bunching is going to be a way of life.

If that's reality though, then shouldn't we consider taking that into account when planning projects? The success of Transit City is predicated on the operators doing their jobs properly. We are going to spend a historic amount of money to replace buses with at-grade rails. If the operators are going to bungle it up, then why waste all that money?

 

[Dan416]

why indeed

 

[izomax]

so are they going to pick option 3?

 

[GenerationW]

who's to say that it is?

No one can say it's possible unless the city asked the Feds. Did they ask? Let's get real -- they obviously they had no interest in asking.

 

[Ansem]

Metrolin seems to be favorable to these 2...

Option 3 (1 LRT line via Don Mills)
VS
Option 4 (Finch LRT+Sheppard Extension+SELRT)

How they can assume a 22hph LRT will draw more than a subway is beyond me. On paper maybe but in reality, people leave their cars for subways...not streetcars a la St.Clair.

Paris LRT, that's another story. They are very fast and light turns green for them. All that money for streetcars...Horrible waste of money

Whatever Metrolinx decide...The next mayor will determine what our network will look like in the future.

 

[Jonny5]

If that's reality though, then shouldn't we consider taking that into account when planning projects? The success of Transit City is predicated on the operators doing their jobs properly. We are going to spend a historic amount of money to replace buses with at-grade rails. If the operators are going to bungle it up, then why waste all that money?

The plans and drawings so far include pretty elaborate attempts to prevent the LRT's from stopping at lights, including the bizarre left turn changes and lots of singnal priority. While it may not work out this way once built, on paper, Sheppard East is nothing like the current short St. Clair shuttle where the operators are left to run as they please.

 

[kEiThZ]

The plans and drawings so far include pretty elaborate attempts to prevent the LRT's from stopping at lights, including the bizarre left turn changes and lots of singnal priority. While it may not work out this way once built, on paper, Sheppard East is nothing like the current short St. Clair shuttle where the operators are left to run as they please.

Signal priority facilitates faster movements and effective spacing. It does not guarantee it. It depends on the operator at the end of the day to pull it off. Now if some are suggesting that despite significant improvements on St. Clair, the operators are not making use of the changes to achieve the desired spacing, what makes somebody think it'll happen on the Transit City routes?

 

[Ansem]

The plans and drawings so far include pretty elaborate attempts to prevent the LRT's from stopping at lights, including the bizarre left turn changes and lots of singnal priority. While it may not work out this way once built, on paper, Sheppard East is nothing like the current short St. Clair shuttle where the operators are left to run as they please.

On eglinton they went as far as planning the reconstruction of some intersections.

On Sheppard East and Finch...It's St.Clair all over again

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

This thread has been on fire for the past 1-2 weeks!

 

[lead82]

With good reason. This decision impacts the travel network that northern Toronto gets in the next 10 years.

I would hope they choose Option 4 over 3. I'd modify Option 4 further by stoping the LRT at Finch West (saving 4km of construction), and interlining the Spadina extension with Sheppard West extension (4km extension). There is really no need for an LRT between Keele/Finch to Downsview is the subway is already making the same trip. Buses can easily handle the load between Keele and Yonge. If demand warrants, the LRT could one day be extended to Yonge St. as originally planned.

Thoughts?