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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 87 81.3%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 20 18.7%

  • Total voters
    107

Ansem

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A DRL, maybe, but an Eglinton line, probably not. Eglinton would have gotten a stubway used by like 50K people per day, and it would have been a subway to nowhere (a *real* nowhere, not a mall surrounded by one of the largest blobs of towers in the city). The difference, of course, that might permit Eglinton to be different and have a pro-subway influence over the years is that Mel Lastman is not associated with Eglinton. Sheppard is not being extended partially to spite his Melgalomania. It's quite petty and Scarborough, not Mel, suffers.

Elements of Transfer City - individual lines - could succeed, but the plan as a whole can only fail and has been failing this city ever since announced.

Kennedy to Pearson can hardly be called nowhere.

The Sheppard Line 100% completed is an excellent line. It connects North York Center to STC and I would make it go further west to Etobicoke.
I live at Sheppard Keele and a lot of people in my area would love to go to Scarborough Center but its too far. I'm sure people from Scarborough would like to go to Yorkdale or North York center but without rapid transit, its inconvenient.

A city like Toronto can do MUCH better than this. When you can't go to every MAJOR PARTS of your city because of lack of rapid transit, its pretty pathetic. You can in New York or Chicago. Last time I checked we were in their league.

We're not a second rate city. We have so much potential and we're much bigger and powerful than we think we are. We should never accept the lack of vision from short sighted politicians. Like I said somewhere on the board, we vote for the candidate who is pro-subway. If Miller gets reelected, than we have no right to complain.

I find it unnaceptable that we have only 3 KM more than Montreal and its including the RT. There is over twice less citizen in Montreal than here.

We have the population to justify those 3 lines.
1-DRL
2-100% Sheppard
3-Eglington

If we drop the Jane Lrt, wouldn't that finish the Sheppard line?
Jane will be VERY expensive with all the tunneling it requires.
 
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scarberiankhatru

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What nonsense.

A rare snipe from CapitalSeven...how lovely! That time of the month, I guess.

Yes, the Transit City plan is nonsense. It makes neither common sense nor fiscal sense, and like EnviroTO says, its failure could prove to be an enduring distraction that harms other much needed projects down the road (though not just subways...there's plenty of corridors in this city suitable for light rail that a failure could jeopardize, including many of the busiest bus routes in the city that the fathers of Transit City just couldn't be bothered with this time around).

Kennedy to Pearson can hardly be called nowhere.

The investment along Sheppard relocated to Eglinton would be roughly a subway from the Spadina line to Jane...and Jane & Eglinton is about as nowhere as you get in the city. Of course, the first phase was only to have gone to Black Creek, which would have resulted in even fewer riders than Sheppard. Comparing a subway that ran the full length of Eglinton to 5.5km along Sheppard is like comparing Apple Paltrow to oranges.
 

kEiThZ

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Looking at the map...I am starting to see Scarberian's point of approaching UTSC from the West along Ellesmere so that generators like the Rouge Hospital. I think what would be interesting would be to create a South Scarborough LRT loop...STC to UTSC along Ellesmere then south along Morningside to Kingston, then west on Eglinton to terminate at Kennedy.

This would provide an alternative to the need to have the Sheppard East LRT to allow for access to a yard. The RT extension to Malvern could still be accomplished with an LRT from STC to Malvern Town Centre. And the Sheppard East LRT could be replaced with the subway extension and rocket buses as Scarberian has proposed.
 

Rainforest

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Looking at the map...I am starting to see Scarberian's point of approaching UTSC from the West along Ellesmere so that generators like the Rouge Hospital. I think what would be interesting would be to create a South Scarborough LRT loop...STC to UTSC along Ellesmere then south along Morningside to Kingston, then west on Eglinton to terminate at Kennedy.

This would provide an alternative to the need to have the Sheppard East LRT to allow for access to a yard. The RT extension to Malvern could still be accomplished with an LRT from STC to Malvern Town Centre. And the Sheppard East LRT could be replaced with the subway extension and rocket buses as Scarberian has proposed.

Looks like a good plan.

It would be useful to include Centennial College in the loop (STC - Centennial - Rouge Hospital - UTSC etc.). However, the link from Centennial to Rouge Hospital might be tricky / expensive.
 

unimaginative2

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Looking at the map...I am starting to see Scarberian's point of approaching UTSC from the West along Ellesmere so that generators like the Rouge Hospital. I think what would be interesting would be to create a South Scarborough LRT loop...STC to UTSC along Ellesmere then south along Morningside to Kingston, then west on Eglinton to terminate at Kennedy.

I went to a public meeting about planned development at Markham and Ellesmere. They're planning for thousands (thousands!) of condo units.
 

Brandon716

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A city like Toronto can do MUCH better than this. When you can't go to every MAJOR PARTS of your city because of lack of rapid transit, its pretty pathetic. You can in New York or Chicago. Last time I checked we were in their league.

Before you start worrying too much about NYC, just remember that JFK airport - the golden kid of the 3 new york airports - didn't have its LRT line until a few years ago. And you have to use LRT to get to the NYC subway system.

Newark international, the other "large" airport, does not have a serious rail link still to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirTrain_Newark

I mean it takes you to the Amtrak and commuter trains, but that's like taking a GO train to downtown Toronto using a LRT system to get you to the nearest GO station.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK_Airtrain

So JFK has only had LRT service since December 2003, a remarkably short period.

Some other cities with rapid transit directly into the airport includes San Francisco International, Boston Logan, and Chicago O'Hare.
 
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W. K. Lis

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Before you start worrying too much about NYC, just remember that JFK airport - the golden kid of the 3 new york airports - didn't have its LRT line until a few years ago. And you have to use LRT to get to the NYC subway system.

Newark international, the other "large" airport, does not have a serious rail link still to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirTrain_Newark

I mean it takes you to the Amtrak and commuter trains, but that's like taking a GO train to downtown Toronto using a LRT system to get you to the nearest GO station.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK_Airtrain

So JFK has only had LRT service since December 2003, a remarkably short period.

Newark Liberty International Airport (EWR) has an AirTrain connection where passengers use to travel from EWR to any station along New Jersey Transit's Northeast Corridor or North Jersey Coast Line, including regional transit hubs such as New York City's Penn Station.
 

Brandon716

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I'm edited the comments before your post, but its still a people mover to a commuter train to get you to the city. Hardly a rapid transit link, and certainly a pain to use when you transfer no less than 3 times minimum.

New York isn't a model to copy when wanting to improve your rapid transit to the airport, no matter how world class the city is. I still say Newark has no serious direct rail transit to Manhattan. Its transfer city a la NYC. ;)
 
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ShonTron

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Newark's model is OK, if only because while you do have to make the transfer at Newark Airport station, the AirTrain takes you straight to the terminal. Other airports might have a direct link, but often requires a transfer to the terminal from a central airport station. Also, at least Newark's rail link allows for travel in both directions.

Better than Blue 22 in any case. But this isn't the ARL thread is it?
 

nfitz

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Before you start worrying too much about NYC, just remember that JFK airport - the golden kid of the 3 new york airports - didn't have its LRT line until a few years ago. And you have to use LRT to get to the NYC subway system.
The line to JFK isn't LRT in sense that it's normally used - in fact the train is exactly the same equipment/technology as the Scarborough RT and the Vancouver Skytrain (though they use newer Mark II vehicles). And while this link does get you to the subway, you are still a long-long ride to downtown (which is likely why they've been considering a direct link).

Newark international, the other "large" airport, does not have a serious rail link still to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirTrain_Newark

I mean it takes you to the Amtrak and commuter trains, but that's like taking a GO train to downtown Toronto using a LRT system to get you to the nearest GO station.
Though it's still faster to get from Newark airport to downtown than from JFK. How is this different than the suggestions of extending (rebuilding) the current Link train at Pearson to a transfer station on the GO Georgetown line? Also there has been talk of extending the PATH (subway from Newark to Manhattan) one stop east to Newark International - though the process seems as bogged down as the Pearson-Union Air Link. If they do that though, it's only 6-stations to the World Trade Center station.
 
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scarberiankhatru

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The optimal transit plan for the NE is a Danforth subway extension to STC followed by LRT branching out up McCowan, up to Malvern, and along Ellesmere (though even BRT lines branching out could be very successful). If everyone can get to STC in one trip, they can get from STC to anywhere else in one trip, like UTSC or downtown or Yonge & Sheppard. McCowan and Ellesmere are practically custom designed for streetcar ROWs and a Progress line could use the old rail corridor to get to Malvern (all three of these would also be cheaper than the average Transfer City line). There's many ways of having them connect at STC but it'd depend largely on where exactly the subway terminates. We could build about 18km of LRT lines to Steeles, Malvern Town Centre, and UTSC for probably less than $750M, and the subway extension to STC would be far cheaper than the Spadina or Yonge extensions (and would euthanize a dying toy train). Add a Sheppard extension to STC and better/integrated GO service and you start actually solving Scarborough's transit issues.
 

Coruscanti Cognoscente

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The optimal transit plan for the NE is a Danforth subway extension to STC followed by LRT branching out up McCowan, up to Malvern, and along Ellesmere (though even BRT lines branching out could be very successful). If everyone can get to STC in one trip, they can get from STC to anywhere else in one trip, like UTSC or downtown or Yonge & Sheppard. McCowan and Ellesmere are practically custom designed for streetcar ROWs and a Progress line could use the old rail corridor to get to Malvern (all three of these would also be cheaper than the average Transfer City line). There's many ways of having them connect at STC but it'd depend largely on where exactly the subway terminates. We could build about 18km of LRT lines to Steeles, Malvern Town Centre, and UTSC for probably less than $750M, and the subway extension to STC would be far cheaper than the Spadina or Yonge extensions (and would euthanize a dying toy train). Add a Sheppard extension to STC and better/integrated GO service and you start actually solving Scarborough's transit issues.

Scarberian I think a lot of us respect your views on transit in Scarborough. Do you have a master plan for transit in Scarborough? If so can you make a lovely map for us to see? :)
With your subway, LRT, etc all on it.
 

waterloowarrior

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TTC loads up on consultants
Posted: January 26, 2009, 8:29 AM by Kenny Yum
Filed under: TTC,Transit City

At the rate the TTC is hiring consultants and staff for its $10-billion Transit City megaproject, Toronto had better hope there is something from Ottawa for the plan when the federal budget comes down tomorrow.

Sameh Ghaly, project manager for Transit City -- the plan to criss-cross Toronto with a network of light rail lines -- says that so far, the TTC has spent $30-million on Transit City and budgets to spend another $100-million to $110-million in 2009.

Sitting with me in a boardroom at the TTC's construction office, in a tower above the North York Civic Centre, Mr. Saleh, a tall, confident engineer in a crisp suit, called Transit City a bonanza for consulting companies.

"Probably every major consultant in Canada, at least in Toronto, is working on Transit City. We have all kinds of consultants. It's a big program. They wouldn't let it go."

Mr. Ghaly says the TTC has signed contracts with consultants for project management, controls, and engineering for the new streetcar lines. The consultants will work in all four divisions: planning and environmental assessments, project management, engineering and controls. Last year, a City of Toronto audit criticized the TTC for relying too heavily on consultants in redesigning its computer systems.

From 2001 to 2006 the TTC spent $38.5-million on more than 150 IT consultants, at "significantly higher" costs than doing the work inhouse, Jeff Griffiths, the city's auditor-general, reported, adding, "The current process is informal, inconsistent and subjective."

Mr. Ghaly acknowledged that consultants are not his preference.

"Our preference is to use TTC people," he says. "They are (a) cheaper and (b) we retain corporate knowledge. However, it's a bit naive to say that we can rely on inhouse talent to build Transit City."

Two weeks ago, STV Inc., based in Douglasville, Pa., signed a $125-million, 10-year contract with the TTC. STV says it will "provide the necessary managerial, professional, technical and administrative staffing ... as required by the TTC to plan, assess, direct, control, resolve, oversee and communicate the objectives of the Transit City Light Rail Plan."

All this spending is a bit striking considering that so far, Transit City is relying entirely on city money. David Miller is hopeful the feds will help fund his light rail dream.

In a Jan. 6 letter to Jim Flaherty, the federal Finance Minister, Mr. Miller wrote, "Toronto city council has unanimously agreed to request the Government of Canada to invest $368-million toward streetcar fleet replacement and expansion, and the federal $6-billion share of the Government of Ontario's $17.5-billion Move Ontario 2020 commitment for the Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan. This funding will enable Transit City to proceed quickly, starting with the Sheppard East LRT, Eglinton Crosstown LRT, Finch West LRT and Scarborough RT lines."

The city is also hoping the province will come through with cash. Adam Giambrone, the chairman of the TTC, previously told me that, "None of the money for Transit City will come from the city. The province has committed to the funding through Metrolinx."

Metrolinx, the provincial agency deciding how to spend provincial money on improving transportation in greater Toronto, has asked Queen's Park to give $55-million to Transit City in 2009.

In the meantime, the city is fronting the cash. Mr. Saleh says that, "the city of Toronto has been paying our bills until now and until April. We are spending lots of time and effort with our provincial counterparts and we are confident that we will get the money in the provincial budget in April."

The city is also spending money to rent new space for the light rail project. The other week Mr. Ghaly and his 30 staff packed up their desks in the Construction department of the Toronto Transit Commission, on the 6th floor of a tower at 5160 Yonge St., connected to North York City Centre.

They moved into the 13th floor, "dedicated to delivering Transit City and the Scarborough RT," Mr. Saleh says. (Among its many jobs, his group must decide whether to order new rapid transit trains for the ageing RT line, or convert that line to light rail.)

"We should have 70 or 80 people by the end of 2009," Mr. Saleh says.

"It's going very fast-paced, because we're doing everything concurrently that is normally done sequentially: planning, design and benefits case. It's an unprecedented program, really, at least in Toronto if not in Canada."

When the TTC approved Transit City in March, 2007, the price was $6-billion. "It went from $6-billion to $8-billion because vehicle prices went up and the maintenance and storage yard were not part of the initial estimate," Mr. Saleh says. "Then add to it the Scarborough RT, that's what gets you to $10-billion."

Just to whet the appetites of federal politicians, streetcar builders are flashing some rather sexy photos of the proposed light rail trains of the future; the TTC says it will order up to 368 of them, at about $5-million a pop. Bombardier, the world leader in making light rail, offers its Flexity, which operates in Marseilles, Brussels and Geneva, among other cities.

Siemens, which built the light rail cars for Calgary and Edmonton at its Sacramento, Ca. plant, offers its Combino Plus cars.

The TTC plans to order light rail cars in April.

pkuitenbrouwer@nationalpost.com

(Photo courtesy Bombardier: Light Rail Vehicle is a proposed TTC streetcar from Bombardier.)

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/01/26/ttc-loads-up-on-consultants.aspx
 

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