Transit CCTV

[Mapleson]

May 11, 2010
Boris Johnson shows off London's CCTV network to Mayor Bloomberg of NYC
Boris Johnson is hosting Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York on a visit to London today, showing him some of the successes of London's war against crime and terrorism.


London's mayor is talking up Operation Blunt 2, the clampdown on knife crime. But there's no mention in the Mayor's press release of the fact that knife crime is up year-on-year in the capital or of the fact that eight of the 11 teenagers murdered in London since January 1 have been stabbed to death.


Bojo is also raving about CCTV. He says he is "never complacent" but adds: "It is clear that the approach we are taking – with sustained investment in policing and CCTV – is helping us make significant strides along the road of tackling crime in our city."


Mayor Bloomberg, the press release tells us, "is particularly interested in London's use of CCTV" and especially in the 12,000 cameras on the Tube network (rising soon to 14,000). The London Mayor's office boasts: "This will ultimately mean that no one will be able to enter the Underground network without their face being recorded by CCTV - a development which has aroused considerable interest in New York."


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought the current Conservative position on these things was to rail against the "surveillance society" and all its prying intrusions into the lives of citizens. The party's election manifesto states that it will take steps to "protect our freedoms from state encroachment" and promises to curtail surveillance powers that have been abused by local authorities.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

I have nothing against Transit CCTV anywhere.

When you're in public you shouldn't have anything to hide (except your privates), and if you haven't performed any criminal activity in public, then why should you be worried about who is watching you? All it is, is to keep you safe and to keep you honest. I really don't get how it's "state encroachment" in public space. I would totally understand if they were watching you in your own home, that's just retarded.

With that said, we have to get with the times because of a few bad apples (terrorists) who have put western society on edge.

 

[Mapleson]

How do you define public/private? In the UK, windows on houses are blacked out, but anything outside is in the 'public domain'. There is a lot of stuff I might be inclined to do on my private property that I would not do in 'public'.

I've lived and worked in the UK for a number of years (some of my work related to installing CCTV). Consider the security and anti-terrorism mentality in the US. It's had a decade of recurring terrorist plots. London/England has faced it for forty years from the IRA and now Islamic extremists. For comparision, Wigan has more CCTV than Paris. The UK currently has 62 CCTV per 1000 people. The UK is installing 2.5 CCTV per 1000 people per year. An average Londoner is captured on around 500 different CCTV per day. The 7/7 bombers had the 48 hour period leading up to their bombing fully documented in court, going camera to camera.

The scariest part is the new technologies. CCTV are being installed with microphones and speakers, so they can tell you to pick up that litter. Test pilots for AI screening programs monitor sound for 'signs of distress, conflict, or illegal activity'. Typical zoom range is 2.5km to identify a face for a low-cost solution.

"Getting with the times" is exactly what we don't need to do. Security measures should be proportionate for security threats. There are two types of terrorists/freedom-fighters in the world, home-grown or foreign: those who generally dislike a repressive government program and those who dislike a liberal government allowance. You need to balance between these points, because a bunker mentality can never be fully realised. The more the US goes down this road, the farther down it we'll be pulled.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

How do you define public/private? In the UK, windows on houses are blacked out, but anything outside is in the 'public domain'. There is a lot of stuff I might be inclined to do on my private property that I would not do in 'public'.

I define "private" as the entire lot parcel including building(s) envelope. Any parcel fabric not owned by a "private interest" is public.

I've lived and worked in the UK for a number of years (some of my work related to installing CCTV). Consider the security and anti-terrorism mentality in the US. It's had a decade of recurring terrorist plots. London/England has faced it for forty years from the IRA and now Islamic extremists. For comparision, Wigan has more CCTV than Paris. The UK currently has 62 CCTV per 1000 people. The UK is installing 2.5 CCTV per 1000 people per year. An average Londoner is captured on around 500 different CCTV per day. The 7/7 bombers had the 48 hour period leading up to their bombing fully documented in court, going camera to camera.

I believe it. Been across the pond a few times as a tourist and in 2007 when I was last there, the amount of cameras is shocking, but I honestly don't know what alternative options exist.

The scariest part is the new technologies. CCTV are being installed with microphones and speakers, so they can tell you to pick up that litter. Test pilots for AI screening programs monitor sound for 'signs of distress, conflict, or illegal activity'. Typical zoom range is 2.5km to identify a face for a low-cost solution.

Yeah, I think the whole idea of adding microphones and speakers to cameras is where I draw the line. Now the cameras will interfere with peoples' activities during their day to day lives. Rather absurd. Pity because I really wanted to live in the UK for a year or two someday, but with it's state of economy, government policies towards security and immigration, I just don't see that happening anymore. :\

"Getting with the times" is exactly what we don't need to do. Security measures should be proportionate for security threats. There are two types of terrorists/freedom-fighters in the world, home-grown or foreign: those who generally dislike a repressive government program and those who dislike a liberal government allowance. You need to balance between these points, because a bunker mentality can never be fully realised. The more the US goes down this road, the farther down it we'll be pulled.

I get what you're saying. I believe this is a tough line to walk. Where do you draw it? Do you do what's best for the greater good or do you concede to various groups who nitpick with criticisms? In any case, it's tough for anyone to handle this issue and you're never gonna be 100% right or wrong on it. Whether Toronto or the GTA turn into a police state will all depend on a successful terrorist attack here (god forbid).