Wow - this thread has come back to life
York Region sure does make it hard to find the data, but the most recent I've been able to see for the entire year of 2013 is here...
+the 99 + the 23 and I don't know how many other routes run at least part of the way from Finch to 7. Let's just agree that it "it's a fair number" and obviously the routings will change, but Yonge will always be THE corridor.
The other point about fare integration is important. How many riders at RHC would move toward GO service if its prices were more comparable to subway, and vice versa
Fare integration is key to achieving the proper balance in this area but the answer to your question is zero per cent of the riders traveling anywhere between Bloor and Highway 7. I'm really amazed how people just dismiss the fact the subway runs through the middle of the entire City of Toronto (connecting to east-west routes along its entire length) and the GO only goes to Union. They are entirely different things, even though, yes, they both go chugga-chugga-choo-choo.
It baffles me.
Never said LRT. Wrote light metro / advanced light rail. There's a difference, which I've written to you about on numerous occasions.
I'll offer a sincere apology, OK? We're out of shape on this thread. Anyway, I still don't see any point adding a new mode when the city's main subway is there and - cost aside, for the time being - easily extendable through this corridor. We'll just shake and agree to disagree on that, I guess.
The point about VMC is not a red herring, it was an example of a Centre. Just as there are other Centres I can point to where transit mode shares and office/residential development didn't pan out as envisioned.
No one disputes that. But you keep talking about them failing to hit 2031 targets as if it's in a vacuum. Everything has taken longer than expected, including updating the planning and building the subway.It's not behind schedule because Vaughan opened new greenfield lands last year.
Langstaff/RHC are also going to miss their targets (by TENS OF THOUSANDS of people!) because they're not getting the necessary transit and I'd argue that's a greater concern. Anyway, intensififcation is definitely happening in and around VMC. The reasons they're behind schedule (in your estimation) are not the same as the reasons that hindered Scarborough, for example. The geography is different, the era is different...one could go on. Nor is there any reason to expect RHC would face the same issues. To say NYCC didn't "pan out as envisioned" is only partly true and it's way too early - by decades- to say or project the same about VMC.
I still maintain that RER on a realigned Richmond Hill corridor and BRT on Yonge is the best option. The RER takes care of the long haul demand, and the BRT makes the trips to NYCC more efficient.
To NYCC. Great. What about Yonge and Eg? What about Yonge and Bloor? Do you have origin-destination data that shows people from RH (and the larger catchment area) travel primarily to/from those destinations? Again - I don't understand this notion that suburbanites only travel to/from the financial district. The core of the entire city is in between these 2 locations!
Extending the subway only exacerbates the crowding problem on Yonge. The key is to get people off of Yonge before they ever even get on it. Save the capacity on Yonge for those whose destinations actually lie right on Yonge north of the CBD (i.e. NYCC, Eglinton & Yonge), and get as many other people as possible off of it.
Well, the goal is to have a transit system that efficiently gets people to and from where they want to go. If that involves traveling down Yonge Street, because that's where stuff is, we need to do all sorts of things to upgrade the larger network and other faciltities and provide alternatives. But forcing them to divert from their preferred, most efficient mode is not the answer IMHO. For many, that will always be Yonge, because it's Yonge.
Go or RER is what will help the situation. YR people see the TTC as a cheap $3.00 vs taking GO And they see a subway extension as increasing property values because its a flat fare. If TTC fares were high like GO do you still think you would see crowding at Finch? People would take GO. That's the bottom line and the truth.
No, it's not. Because it's not 1970 anymore. People are not only traveling from their homes in RH to their jobs in Toronto. People travel in between. People travel off-peak. People travel the other direction entirely and the transit system doesn't recognize that. GO is more expensive than TTC, yes, but that's not WHY people take it. No one takes the TTC to St. Clair because it's cheaper than GO. They take it because GO goes nowhere remotely nearby in the first place.
The entire fare structure of the region is about to change to, hopefully to something that works bettter. The notion of GO existing to help people get from the 905 to the 416, and for the TTC to serve only the 416, is done. The new fare structure, and hopefully eventually some kind of new governance, will recognize that.
GO Richmond Hill improvements are definitely necessary, and with them in place any YN projected ridership would plummet - which is probably why York Region planners don't want us to see this data.
You've made the leap from one unproven theory to another. It's therefore exponentinally hypothetical. The two lines have "different audiences." And, as you know at this point, the densities at the growth centre are predicated on BOTH modes being operational. Curtailing either one curtails the job and residential numbers, so it's a viscious circle. I don't know why "York Region" planners need to be accused of some sort of malfeasance given all the players in this.
Let's not forget - the province ORDERED municipalities to intensify. They TOLD York Region to do so at Yonge/7. They PROMISED a subway to that location. Don't blame York Region for somehow gaming the system at anyone else's expense.
And probably why the Prov downgraded the RH line from their original "Express Rail" promise, to next to no improvements to 2031.
Or because, as you have yourself acknowledged, it is the GO line with the greatest infrastructure challenges. Nothing can happen there because they have to first resolve the flooding issues and (also repeated ad nauseum) the line differs from most other GO lines in terms of lack of its potential connections/new stations downstream. YES, you've shown there are ways to do it but as it presently exists it's the most challenging line. There's no great conspiracy at work.
But contrary to many people here, I still very much support subway-like infrastructure in York Region, and most definitely want them to build for the future and follow-through with development plans. I just don't think deep bore heavy rail is the way to do it. Nor do I think BRT / BRT-lite feeder routes are enough to entice riders out of their beloved cars.
I admit, sometimes I think you're nutty but sometimes I think, hey, this dude and I probably have more in common at the end of the day then we'd like to admit. You know, our biggest problem should be they actually figure out how to get a decent RT plan up and moving in this area. I think there's little point wasting breath about modes at this point but at least the dicussion of how to use transit to urbanize this area is a valuable one.
This is very true. And up until recently, RHC was definitely viewed by YR as the single terminal hub (with BRT northward, and subway southward). But up until very recently, we've learned that YR is now actually looking at potentially expanding the subway north of RHC in the coming decades - with a loop up to Major Mack and across to Vaughan Mills, then south to VMC
As you said, that's a pipe dream. None of it changes that Yonge/7 is the primary terminal. The fact that they want to develop OTHER transit oriented centres in no way undermines their plans for Yonge/7; no matter how many times you imply otherwise (If anything, I could argue it shows how ingrained TOD is becoming in the region, though I actually hestitate to give Vaughan especially that much credit).
Yonge is where the provincial UGC is. That's where the existing transit is. That's where the planned transit is. That's the central spine of the region and the central spine of its intensification plans dating back more than a decade. Vaughan Mills doesn't change that any more than the plans for Scarborough's subway make me question why they're renovating Union Station. Apples and cucumbers.
There is some irony in the notion (and it IS a notion) and your suggestion that since a subway seems crazy the further north you go, the further north they want to go, the less sense a subway makes overall. But that's not how things work
to use my historical example, if the TTC suggested, in 1950, that they want to go up to Bloor. And also to Eglinton and also to Finch, the fact that Finch was then so remote does not disprove the need for a subway in downtown or midtown. Those are PHASES. And they happened, as absurd as it might have seemed to some people at the outset.
Looking to the future and imaginging potential where some people don't see it is the entire point of the enterprise. It's what PLANNING is.
So to sum up, my question is: if I make t-shirts that say, "...because it's Yonge Street," will you promise to wear one?
