Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Amare]

They are anti-transit for requesting more transit?

I never suggested that. What I said is that have been inept is providing adequate transit for the area that they are servicing right now. If you took a look at their scheduling and coverage you would know exactly what I mean.

What i'm saying is that they should stop relying on Toronto and take care of their own needs and problems, because trust me there are a whole host of issues with YRT as it is right now.

 

[ShonTron]

After the Relief Line, the only other subway extension that makes complete sense is the Yonge North extension.

Working for York Region:

• The Region has been consistently putting the Yonge Subway extension at the top of its priorities, meanwhile building out VivaNext on Highway 7 and Davis Drive in the meantime.
• The densities on Yonge Street itself through Thornhill are building up to a level that can sustain rapid transit.
• The bus corridor along Yonge Street between Highway 7 and Steeles is busy, thanks to GO and YRT/Viva; south of Steeles is extremely busy.

Working against York Region:

• Yonge Subway capacity. John Tory's SmartTrack will not relieve the Yonge Line enough. ATC will only be a stop-gap.
• York Region's commitment to operating transit. YRT service levels are poor, compared to those in Mississauga or Brampton. Ridership isn't great. It would be awful unless if it wasn't for Finch Station and York University.

York Region isn't out of their minds. I just think they're being unrealistic pushing for a subway without a Relief Line, despite Toronto's dithering.

 

[kEiThZ]

I never suggested that. What I said is that have been inept is providing adequate transit for the area that they are servicing right now. If you took a look at their scheduling and coverage you would know exactly what I mean.

What i'm saying is that they should stop relying on Toronto and take care of their own needs and problems, because trust me there are a whole host of issues with YRT as it is right now.

This is not "relying on Toronto". This is recognising the reality of the Yonge North corridor.

Simply because they also have other transit issues to address, does not change the reality of Yonge.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This is not "relying on Toronto". This is recognising the reality of the Yonge North corridor.

Simply because they also have other transit issues to address, does not change the reality of Yonge.

In the interim, I suggest York Region use a BRT, or some kind of enhances bus service, north of Steeles. The YNSE isn't isn't coming for another 20 years or so, and York Region whining about it won't make the technical realities go away. Make the best of a bad situation.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Or better yet, they should start planing a solution to their own problem along Yonge St instead of knocking on Toronto's door to deal with the problem they are about to create.

I think the "out of their minds" comment has been sufficiently debunked already. Suffice it to say, if Toronto had taken care of its own backyard and built the DRL years ago, the Yonge North extension would look like the most sensible transit project on file.

But let's get our history straight - York Region DID plan a solution to their "problem" along Yonge Street. They developed an Official Plan over a decade ago that was very progressive for a suburb and it outlined intensification plans around rapid transit on Highway 7 and Yonge . They asked for and got funding for BRT. They started planning for BRT. The PROVINCE told them they would fund the subway so York, totally sensibly, shelved the BRT on that stretch of Yonge. they did everything they were asked and finished the EA. It's not their fault that it's been in limbo since and they're certainly not "out of their minds" requesting funding for a project that is:
a) totally justified by the existing ridership and density in the corridor
b) required to meet the density/population/jobs targets the province imposed on them without providing adequate infrastructure

They're far less "out of their minds" than Toronto council in terms of what it's doing in Scarborough (or was about do, before they got a degree of sanity) and on the Gardiner. The issues with their buses and larger network are, yeah, issues. But none of that explains why a subway on Yonge doesn't make sense.

In the meantime, Toronto's "dithering" ends up having repercussions beyond their borders because, though they don't often act like it, they're actually the keystone of a larger regional network and when they drop the ball, it ends up affecting people all over the GTA( see, yesterday's fire, for starters).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

But let's get our history straight - York Region DID plan a solution to their "problem" along Yonge Street. They developed an Official Plan over a decade ago that was very progressive for a suburb and it outlined intensification plans around rapid transit on Highway 7. They asked for and got funding for BRT. They started planning for BRT. The PROVINCE told them they would fund the subway so York, totally sensibly, shelved the BRT on that stretch of Yonge. they did everything they were asked and finished the EA. It's not their fault that it's been in limbo since and they're certainly not "out of their minds" requesting funding for a project that is:
a) totally justified by the existing ridership and density in the corridor
b) required to meet the density/population/jobs targets the province imposed on them without providing adequate infrastructure

Since 2007, the province has known the requirement for the subway to York was the Relief Line. The Yonge North Subway Extension was approved 10 years ago. If the province wanted YRNS built, they could've funded the Relief Line and YRNS years ago and both would be well underway by now. They haven't funded either. If the province wants this done, they need to quit talking about it and fund the necessary infrastructure.

 

[Forgotten]

They are anti-transit for requesting more transit?

Look at all the buses from both York and TTC along Yonge North. There's a case to be made for extending the line north.

York is right to push for their needs. And they are right to insist that it shouldn't be dependent on another project. Of course, Toronto is also right to pursue our interest.

Hopefully, the province builds DRL short and Yonge North at the same time, while also retrofitting platform screens and more automation to the line.

They're anti transit because buses for the plebs run every 90 minutes. York has bigger problems to solve first.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Anybody who wants to build a subway line to feed more passengers to line they know is over capacity is out of their minds. The other circumstances (how the line came to be over capacity, etc...) don't matter. You simply don't put more passengers onto over capacity arteries.

silly comment. The Yonge line has been at/near capacity for years and Toronto has done almost nothing about it. Because it's the central spine of the system almost EVERYTHING they do adds capacity. The Crosstown makes it easier for riders to get on Yonge. The Danforth extension to Scarborough too. The idea that we should stop building any transit that would add riders to the Yonge line is the crazy idea.

(It also ignores that a lot of people crowding the Yonge line now are already coming from north of Finch; they're just driving or taking one of the literally hundreds of buses an hour along that stretch to get there.)

Since 2007, the province has known the requirement for the subway to York was the Relief Line. The Yonge North Subway Extension was approved 10 years ago. If the province wanted YRNS built, they could've funded the Relief Line and YRNS years ago and both would be well underway by now. They haven't funded either. If the province wants this done, they need to quit talking about it and fund the necessary infrastructure.

this isn't on the province. Toronto has no plan for them to fund. Toronto has de-prioritized the DRL more times than most municipalities have even conceived of subways. It's - let's be entirely clear - TORONTO's fault there is no DRL. There was no DRL plan in Transit City. When TORONTO asked Metrolinx to move it up in The Big Move, they did. But even Mayor Subways Subways Subways took like 3 years before he knew it existed. Then they had to pretend it had a different name because downtown already has so many subways.

It's only in the last couple of years it's started getting traction and I bet most people in Toronto - not Transit Nerds, not Steve Munro, not the people on this board - still don't know anything about it.

I've said before, I empathize with how poorly the TTC is funded by upper levels of government but they also have to take responsibility for their own messes.

(And I haven't even mentioned the Metrolinx report that clearly spelled out how sufficient capacity could be provided for a time, allowing the extension to proceed. Unlike Toronto, they looked at a variety of options and the larger regional network. But, no, I'm just running with the prevailing assumption that the DRL is a necessary prerequisite. I think it's necessary; I don't buy that it's the keystone without which nothing else can happen.)

You wouldn't pour more water into a full bathtub and act like it's alright to do so because you weren't the one who filled up the bathtub, right?

If I need to take a bath and my dumb neighbour filled up the tub and walked away, I'd say that's the bigger problem. I'm not "out of my mind" for needing a bath and wondering why I can't use the one bathtub when he keeps neglecting to empty the damned thing. Obviously they're related problems but when we've got a whole bunch of people who need to take baths, telling them they're out of their minds for dreaming of access to proper hygiene is not the answer.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto has de-prioritized the DRL more times than most municipalities have even conceived of subways. It's - let's be entirely clear - TORONTO's fault there is no DRL. There was no DRL plan in Transit City. When TORONTO asked Metrolinx to move it up in The Big Move, they did. But even Mayor Subways Subways Subways took like 3 years before he knew it existed. Then they had to pretend it had a different name because downtown already has so many subways.

The Relief Line has been in the plans since 2009, back when Miller was mayor. But regardless, could Toronto have moved faster? Absolutely. But the City isn't the limiting factor here, as a City of Toronto study is not and never has been a prerequisite for a provincial funding commitment, and many projects do indeed receive provincial commitments without completed studies. The province could very easily initiated the studies, committed to fund the YRNS and DRL and had the both the Relief Line and Yonge North Subway Extension under construction by now. If the province acted back in 2009, when Toronto outlined the requirements for the Yonge Relief Network study, both projects be operational around 2022, at about the same time as the Crosstown. But two elections have passed, and the province has chosen not to move forward on either, not giving the urgency both of these projects deserve.

Remember, the City of Toronto can't unilaterally build the Relief Line and YNSE. The province can. The ball is in Wynne's court.

If I need to take a bath and my dumb neighbour filled up the tub and walked away, I'd say that's the bigger problem. I'm not "out of my mind" for needing a bath and wondering why I can't use the one bathtub when he keeps neglecting to empty the damned thing. Obviously they're related problems but when we've got a whole bunch of people who need to take baths, telling them they're out of their minds for dreaming of access to proper hygiene is not the answer.

No. You'd be out of your mind to use a bathtub when it's already full with water, with no possible drainage, damaging your house even further. May I suggest trying to find or borrow another bathtub? That's what I've done when we've had plumbing issues

 

[drum118]

I have stated over a decade ago that York doesn't need a subway, but an LRT to Steeles Ave. The Young Line need to be built to Steeles years ago to deal with the bus gridlock on Young St.

Unless the Relief Line goes to Steeles, not going to help the Young Line. Going to Danforth does nothing for the Young Line. Going to Eglinton will help some, but not like going to Sheppard.

Given all the development taking place on Young St today as well on the books, the Young Line will be over capacity for the rest of everyone life. If one looks at Yonge Street from Steeles to Queens Quay closely, they will see density within one block of Young St requiring a 2nd subway line by 2050 or sooner.

If Toronto is having a hard time trying to deal with this issue now, where are you planning to put the under use white Elephant to RHC riders without them taking the seats of the Toronto riders??

At no time has TTC and York Region been able to supply ridership numbers for peak and off peak service when the line open during the EA study. The best numbers I could come up based on current YRT/VIVA service as well relocating existing York car driver was 1,800 per hour at peak time on opening day. Metrolinx Business case call for about 8,000 around 2035 and well under a subway requirement that can be supported by BRT or LRT with LRT being the choice.

York wants this White Elephant so developers can cover its $2B debit considering very little can be built between Steeles and 407 to cover the cost of the line in the first place as well the debit.

Given where the yard will have to be in York, you are better off building the line to the north side of RC since the downtown can't support a true BRT in the first place with on street parking.

TTC and City planner have had no real vision for a true transit system within the city for decades.

There been a plan on the city/TTC books to put in an ROW from Finch to Steeles longer than I have been a transit advocate.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Doesn't the benefits case for YNSE show about 20,000 pphpd southbound at Finch?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The Relief Line has been in the plans since 2009, back when Miller was mayor. But regardless, could Toronto have moved faster? Absolutely. But the City isn't the limiting factor here, as a City of Toronto study is not and never has been a prerequisite for a provincial funding commitment, and many projects do indeed receive provincial commitments without completed studies.

No question - Scarborough and SmartTrack are obvious examples. BUT that only happens if the project is a political priority. The DRL has not been a Toronto priority. The Big Move included what Toronto wanted and that was Transit City (and then we all know what happened).
I can't agree this is on the province. They do not initiate studies and they do not plan or initiate municipal transit projects (whether they SHOULD - that's another discussion). If Toronto had fought for the DRL instead of Scarborough (or Transit City or Sheppard/Eglinton, even), they would have received commitments. No municipality can unilaterally build anything, but it's 100% on Toronto.

No. You'd be out of your mind to use a bathtub when it's already full with water, with no possible drainage, damaging your house even further. May I suggest trying to find or borrow another bathtub? That's what I've done when we've had plumbing issues

Well, the bathtub metaphor only carries us so far. We agree it's full. But no one is complaining about other Toronto projects that unquestionably add pressure to the Yonge line with the DRL still barely on the horizon. The Metrolinx study, which is the only network-wide study of the issue, says that with RER, the Spadina extension, ATO etc, the DRL is NOT a prerequisite. I'm not an engineer so, who knows, maybe it's deeply flawed (I'm sure Steve Munro thinks it is), but that's what it says. I wouldn't move on the extension unless I knew the DRL was in the pipe right behind it, but unless one of us (and I'm including Munro and Keeesmaat and Metrolinx and everyone else) is psychic, there's no way to know for sure that the extension would overwhelm the system.

In the meantime, people still gotta bathe. It's a shame we all have to use the same "water" but, quite simply, the sooner you build it the better the chance you have of encouraging transit use in an area with a historic aversion to it. The longer you wait, the more cars get bought there.

 

[Amare]

This is not "relying on Toronto". This is recognising the reality of the Yonge North corridor.

Simply because they also have other transit issues to address, does not change the reality of Yonge.

Youre right it doesnt change the reality of Yonge, but at the same time they're delusional in thinking that the Yonge line has any capacity whatsoever to handle additional ridership like they are claiming.

The fact is simple, if they want something done it's time they start doing some alternative planning instead of begging and waiting for an extension of the Yonge line to happen. The TTC and Metrolinx have both come out and said that the line is overcapacity and will continue to run at capacity for the next 20 years unless something is done.

But let's get our history straight - York Region DID plan a solution to their "problem" along Yonge Street. They developed an Official Plan over a decade ago that was very progressive for a suburb and it outlined intensification plans around rapid transit on Highway 7 and Yonge . They asked for and got funding for BRT. They started planning for BRT. The PROVINCE told them they would fund the subway so York, totally sensibly, shelved the BRT on that stretch of Yonge. they did everything they were asked and finished the EA. It's not their fault that it's been in limbo since and they're certainly not "out of their minds" requesting funding for a project that is:
a) totally justified by the existing ridership and density in the corridor
b) required to meet the density/population/jobs targets the province imposed on them without providing adequate infrastructure

I wont argue with you that the province has screwed up providing adequate infrastructure that is needed to handle all the population targets that they have set out (because truthfully they have), but at the same time there have been numerous reports done years later by Metrolinx (aka the province) and the TTC that state repeatedly that the Yonge line cannot handle additional capacity unless other projects go forward first.

So it's York Region issue if they choose to continue to ignore the warnings and keep insisting on a Yonge line extension to be built even though it is at least a decade away. If they want to keep wasting their time instead of planning an alternative or a stop-gap measure that's good on them. The fact of the matter is that they are delusional in thinking that the Yonge line can handle additional riders even after ATC and the Spadina extension are done, and Smarttrack still wont be enough to give the Yonge line enough capacity to handle York Region riders.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I wont argue with you that the province has screwed up providing adequate infrastructure that is needed to handle all the population targets that they have set out (because truthfully they have), but at the same time there have been numerous reports done years later by Metrolinx (aka the province) and the TTC that state repeatedly that the Yonge line cannot handle additional capacity unless other projects go forward first.

The Metrolinx report says the EXACT opposite of what you say it does.

"The upward pressures (population and employment growth) are offset by larger downward pressures (network improvements) resulting
in about the same demand for the Yonge Subway in 2031 as today but with higher capacity...
With the Yonge North Extension, the Yonge Subway will still be under capacity."

And...

"Even though population and employment growth will add new riders, at the same time new projects (including RER and the Toronto-
York Spadina Subway extension) will attract riders from the Yonge Subway
• The net result is that demand on the Yonge Subway by 2031 would return to the same levels as today
• Fortunately relief will be created through current committed projects.
• More rapid transit service and capacity that is currently funded and being implemented will meet the future 15 year demand assuming the City’s current forecasts on downtown employment growth and implementation of committed projects."

If you want to challenge the report, more power to you, but let's be clear: the professional experts on this say there is capacity, even without the DRL. They don't say what you imagine that they say, QED.

So it's York Region issue if they choose to continue to ignore the warnings and keep insisting on a Yonge line extension to be built even though it is at least a decade away. If they want to keep wasting their time instead of planning an alternative or a stop-gap measure that's good on them.

There's no train of logic here (no pun intended).
They're right to want it. You're right there are capacity issues. That's not a reason for them not want it or ask for it. They're right to have municipal priorities, just like anyone else. If the province doesn't wanna fund it, they won't. If they do and TTC implodes, you can have a good "Told ya so!" chuckle about it. Ha - we finally built too much transit! (And that would be a Toronto issue more than a York Region one - but it would be bad.)

The fact of the matter is that they are delusional in thinking that the Yonge line can handle additional riders even after ATC and the Spadina extension are done, and Smarttrack still wont be enough to give the Yonge line enough capacity to handle York Region riders.

No - that's not a fact at all. It is, very obviously, your opinion.
They're not delusional about thinking any of those things. They have a third-party expert report that says PRECISELY AND EXPLICITLY that those things will be enough. What do you have to refute it other than your psychological evaluation?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If anyone truly believes the TTC can achieve 36,000 pphpd by 2021 with ATC and Rocket, and then predicate their analysis with this assumption they are really, really out to lunch - plus the estimated volume to capacity ratio is 96% - I feel almost impolite to ask them what their error bars are.

AoD