Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[nfitz]

Yes, I saw the earlier post but my point was that if they make it hard to see their (often inaccurate) articles I will simply stop looking at BlogTO at all.

As soon as I start hitting paywalls on something Google suggests I look at, I simply add the website to the ones for Google to ignore. So if they make some free, and others not free, then I wouldn't even have the opportunity to not open it.

Though it worked fine for me. And still does. It does pop up a subscribe box after a few seconds, but if you dismiss it, the article is still there.

 

[Allandale25]

Something here we all already know. People will use transit if it's convenient and there's frequency. Hopefully in the future Toronto will be in the playoffs more and more service can be added through investing in more capacity and crews.

 

[Northern Light]

Something here we all already know. People will use transit if it's convenient and there's frequency. Hopefully in the future Toronto will be in the playoffs more and more service can be added through investing in more capacity and crews.

UPX has limited if any ability to expand capacity in its current form..........so that likely wasn't an option last night. What they could have done was scheduled some additional runs.

 

[nfitz]

UPX has limited if any ability to expand capacity in its current form..........so that likely wasn't an option last night. What they could have done was scheduled some additional runs.

What they could have done is take the last Kitchener train, which left about the same time. Or the subway, which isn't too bad to either Bloor or Weston stations.

Or if they could afford a ticket to Game 7 of the World series - take a taxi. Hopefully there were no real airport travellers screwed by this.

 

[APTA-2048]

What they could have done is take the last Kitchener train, which left about the same time. Or the subway, which isn't too bad to either Bloor or Weston stations.

Or if they could afford a ticket to Game 7 of the World series - take a taxi. Hopefully there were no real airport travellers screwed by this.

This trying to use the UP Express as a substitute for the GO train always frustrates me because ideally we would have had an airport train and a Kitchner line train with Lakeshore line levels of service from the start. Like I get why that didn’t happen, but it still bothers me.

 

[crs1026]

If we are expecting UP to be the operator that clears out the downtown core after a major event, we are doing it all wrong.

Coverage in the Star indicates this may come up at TTC Board tomorrow.

The TTC has some limited ability to tell operators "just keep running"... and subway trains will theoretically continue to cycle thru the system until the crowd has been carried away..

With GO, the opportunity isn't there on most routes. The trains needed to make that extra cycle may be at the far end of the system. GO will have staged a certain number of trains in the downtown yards, but that's all the resources they can commit. Certainly one could try to keep the LSE/LSW cycle turning, but that would likely have meant a decision as early as 22:00 or 22:30 to cycle trains back towards Union. ML has pointed out that this requires the freight railways granting slots, and federal work-rest rules likely kicked in. Until we have cyclical 2WAD such that there is a true cycle of service on other routes, GO will only be able to offer a few midnight trippers and nothing more.

It's a nice problem to have though - the GTA has reached a critical mass where themodal share of people attending downtown events is heavily skewed towards transit of all types. This is a victory and it's critical that this be preserved and transit operators rise to that challenge. Otherwise people will go back to driving, or not come at all.

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

This trying to use the UP Express as a substitute for the GO train always frustrates me because ideally we would have had an airport train and a Kitchner line train with Lakeshore line levels of service from the start. Like I get why that didn’t happen, but it still bothers me.

Though Mx has been unwilling to really talk about this to date...........I've noted privately and will say publicly at this point, that UPX is unlikely to continue it its current form, much beyond the next decade.

No final decisions have been taken, so far as I'm aware, there were a couple of different ideas being looked at in terms of shape of service; but the general idea is that what is now UPX would be replaced by regional rail, possibly with standard GO rolling stock, or maybe with something else........but certainly not the tiny trains of today.

But its a while off yet.

 

[Northern Light]

With GO, the opportunity isn't there on most routes. The trains needed to make that extra cycle may be at the far end of the system. GO will have staged a certain number of trains, but that's all the resources they can commit. Certainly one could try to keep the LSE/LSW cycle turning, but that would likely have meant a decision as early as 22:00 or 22:30 to cycle trains back towards Union. ML has pointed out that this requires the freight railways granting slots, and federal work-rest rules kick in. Until we have cyclical 2WAD such that there is a true cycle of service, GO will only be able to offer a few midnight trippers and nothing more..... - Paul

Certainly there are finite slots and RR permission is required on Bala north of York sub, on the Milton Corridor, LSW west of Oakville, or beyond Bramalea.

The balance of the GO lines (LSW from Oakville to Union, LSW, Stouffville, the inner portion of Kitchener should have very few, if any conflicts. There is a the GECO local 1 or 2x per week on Stouffville, not sure of the timing...

@smallspy would know better.

But I'm leery of that being an excuse. Shortage of crews is a different question; but I think there would have been ample room on most (not all) corridors to run additional later service, we're only talking about 1-2 trains extra here, adding 12:45am departure and 1:15 or equivalent.

 

[Allandale25]

UPX has limited if any ability to expand capacity in its current form..........so that likely wasn't an option last night. What they could have done was scheduled some additional runs.

Sorry, I should have expanded on my thought here. Firstly I just wanted to show something up related given this thread. Secondly, I meant in a more General way in terms of how much people enjoy the frequency. Certainly in the future in terms of general transit service expansion it would have to be beyond the capacity constraints of UP Express. While there is Kitchener Line GO service, I'm sure UP Express is attractive for some given how close it is to the SkyWalk and the lack of stairs and level boarding. So some of it is human nature and last mile ease.

 

[crs1026]

But I'm leery of that being an excuse. Shortage of crews is a different question; but I think there would have been ample room on most (not all) corridors to run additional later service, we're only talking about 1-2 trains extra here, adding 12:45am departure and 1:15 or equivalent.

Even if the available crews are willing and able (and I won't assume they are, their expectations for these late night trippers may be one-and-done) it's a question of where the trainsets and the crews are at the decision point where the Operations Center realises that the event is running late and service needs to be adjusted and extended. Not much consolation for the fans waiting at Union to know that the trainset that just arrived in Georgetown or Hamilton is doubling back for an extra run.

I agree with the vision, in fact I think it's mission critical to make that transition asap. The point I would make is that for GO it's a quantum change from what is achievable today within their work rules and scheduling and culture. It will take some resolve - and maybe some collective bargaining, and even maybe a trip or two to Ottawa - to actually implement. Well beyond just writing a memo or throwing a lever someplace.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Certainly there are finite slots and RR permission is required on Bala north of York sub, on the Milton Corridor, LSW west of Oakville, or beyond Bramalea.

The balance of the GO lines (LSW from Oakville to Union, LSW, Stouffville, the inner portion of Kitchener should have very few, if any conflicts. There is a the GECO local 1 or 2x per week on Stouffville, not sure of the timing...

@smallspy would know better.

But I'm leery of that being an excuse. Shortage of crews is a different question; but I think there would have been ample room on most (not all) corridors to run additional later service, we're only talking about 1-2 trains extra here, adding 12:45am departure and 1:15 or equivalent.

The proposed platform lengths for the UP-only station at St. Clair might tell us a lot!

 

[Voltz]

The proposed platform lengths for the UP-only station at St. Clair might tell us a lot!

That different groups aren't talking to each other.

 

[dowlingm]

(Re UPX capacity on Saturday) I do think the event has to take some blame here rather than the City and Metrolinx have to go beyond the significant efforts already made such as deferring maintenance windows.

MLB should perhaps have been told by the City that regardless of TV, first pitch needed to be at 7 or 7.30 - it was a weekend game and this would have been 4pm on Saturday in PT. Even if the game had finished on time, it would still have been quite late in the transit day to move large numbers especially when in addition to 45K at Skydome there was also 20K at the ACC

 

[nfitz]

MLB should perhaps have been told by the City that regardless of TV, first pitch needed to be at 7 or 7.30 - it was a weekend game and this would have been 4pm on Saturday in PT. Even if the game had finished on time, it would still have been quite late in the transit day to move large numbers especially when in addition to 45K at Skydome there was also 20K at the ACC

That would have worked well for an 11-inning game. But what about 13 innings? Or the 18-inning game like they had on last Monday? Okay in LA with their 5 pm start (though it ended close to midnight, so any teenagers that went to the game would have been after the 10 pm LA curfew).

But if that happened in Toronto, the game would have ended at 2:50 am ... and then all the presentations, etc. ... I could see many not getting to Union until 4 am; 3:15 am if they skipped that. TTC was obviously prepared - but GO ... might as well party all night and take the morning train.

Though it's hard to be prepared for the incredibly rare game that goes almost 7 hours. A 7 pm first pitch wouldn't solve that. Nor is starting earlier on most days (weekdays).

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

(Re UPX capacity on Saturday) I do think the event has to take some blame here rather than the City and Metrolinx have to go beyond the significant efforts already made such as deferring maintenance windows.

MLB should perhaps have been told by the City that regardless of TV, first pitch needed to be at 7 or 7.30 - it was a weekend game and this would have been 4pm on Saturday in PT. Even if the game had finished on time, it would still have been quite late in the transit day to move large numbers especially when in addition to 45K at Skydome there was also 20K at the ACC

I agree with you on the start time being late for a weekend. I don't know what Fox might have going on in the late afternoon/early evening that necessitated the 8pm start time. College sports?

That being said you can't really fault the MLB/FOX for the additional 20k people attending the watch parting at SBA down the street, that's an MLSE decision.

I think as a transit agency. Knowing the size of the event, I wonder why this wasn't planned for in the first place. I mean there were reasonably 100,000 people down there, how many trains would be needed clear that volume? A GO train has a crush capacity of approx 5200 riders meaning that, if we estimate half of those people were taking GO/UPX, we'd need to run 10 trains, and have to run them on lines that people wanted to use. So that's like 1-3 trains per line (7 lines but obviously LSE/LSW/Kitchener have the greatest demand. You'd plan to start the extra service about 30+ mins following the expected end of the game (need to give fans time to exit the stadium and walk over to Union).

I think what was missed was that, as the obvious championship game, there is was a very high probability (near 100%) that a significant number of attendees were going to take significantly longer to exit the stadium than normal. As there would be a championship ceremony etc. Proper planning would have had the extra service run from say 40 mins following the game to perhaps 2 hrs. Which given that the expected end of the game would have been around 11:30, the plan should have been to be running service until at least 1:30 if not 2am.