Toronto Therme Spa/West Island at Ontario Place | 45.15m | 9s | Therme Group | Diamond Schmitt

[3Dementia]

I would rather push to make Premier Fords follies fit into the existing site, while increasing access to the site and to the waterfront, or perhaps parking the follies on the rail deck?

I don't know if I can wait (or live) that long to have a drink with an umbrella poolside under the palm trees in January... but that is a pretty brilliant idea for rail deck.

It's basically site-adjacent to all things entertainment anyway (baseball, aquarium, CN Tower, bars, restaurants etc.)... and would be a condo huge selling point... live here and walk to the Caribbean. Rail corridor open-wound sealed.

You might just have fast-tracked the whole mega-project by a decade. At minimum, CRAFT & Kingsmen owe you $1 million for the idea.

 

[Natika33]

I guess I'm a weirdo, but I prefer the original proposal. Why don't they green over the EX grounds so it could be a park most of the year & still function as the midway during the CNE? You'd still get your park that way and we'd still get a nice new beach at Ontario Place.

 

[Northern Light]

I guess I'm a weirdo, but I prefer the original proposal. Why don't they green over the EX grounds so it could be a park most of the year & still function as the midway during the CNE? You'd still get your park that way and we'd still get a nice new beach at Ontario Place.

You can still have a beach in the new park (Ontario Place) it would be the subject of a design competition, that could be a specified criteria (must include a beach), or we could make it an option and let people weigh in on any designs.

There is just no need to have Therme occupying the majority of the west Island.

****

As to the Ex, I'm not sure how you could create a large ~20 acre park on the grounds And have that space also used by the midway. The midway rides/booths, never mind the generators and pedestrian traffic would kill any vegetation under foot.

You can't build a Ferris Wheel on top of a tree.

Certainly, one could make some of the midway paths permanent and green, but in isolation, that doesn't make for much of a park.

 

[Natika33]

You can still have a beach in the new park (Ontario Place) it would be the subject of a design competition, that could be a specified criteria (must include a beach), or we could make it an option and let people weigh in on any designs.

There is just no need to have Therme occupying the majority of the west Island.

****

As to the Ex, I'm not sure how you could create a large ~20 acre park on the grounds And have that space also used by the midway. The midway rides/booths, never mind the generators and pedestrian traffic would kill any vegetation under foot.

You can't build a Ferris Wheel on top of a tree.

Certainly, one could make some of the midway paths permanent and green, but in isolation, that doesn't make for much of a park.

Point taken about trees interfering with rides, but I have a question - If Ontario Place is supposed to be for everyone in Ontario and not just Toronto, what's the draw of a simple park?

 

[Amare]

I really dont know what to make out of the proposal, but his innovative thinking is a breath of fresh air. The status quo era has me so irate at this point; we've just been dealing with the same crap of nothingness for the past X years. No real change, no improvements to anything really, we've just been stuck in some time capsule wasting away time, land, etc.

 

[Northern Light]

Point taken about trees interfering with rides, but I have a question - If Ontario Place is supposed to be for everyone in Ontario and not just Toronto, what's the draw of a simple park?

Lets remember what we are comparing this to; one giant indoor spa/sauna/pool, privately-owned, accessible on paid fee of ~$40 per person only. Food and any extras, and tax and parking if applicable are extra.

Is that accessible 'for everyone' in Ontario?

My ideal would be to substantially restore Ontario Place to what it was on opening day, with some updates, a better waterpark, more multi-cultural cuisine, a bit more interesting and ecologically appropriate landscape, a bit more nightlife. But bring back 'The Children's Village' which I loved as a kid, and the waterpark, and Future Pod, and waterside patio dining and the original, free, concert venue, The Forum while we're at it.........

That said, that is simply not on the table right now. Toronto doesn't really need another midway/theme park, we have Canada's Wonderland for that. Though I'd be happy enough to add one permanent roller coaster somewhere.......

But I think the one thing I'm clear on is that this space should celebrate the waterfront and be outdoor-oriented, not a spa exclusively for the affluent, that by nature will have no choice but to turns its back on most of the grounds with blank walls. Yuck!

 

[Lyphe]

The lack of support is directly tied to the usage going from public to private. I don't think anyone is against sitting in a sauna in the snow as a concept.

I'm kind of confused by all the comments re/ public vs private.

Is it the 'idea' of private enterprise that is bending noses? What exactly is the issue with the new place offering a mix of public and private paid options? The reason I ask is that I don't see the difference from what we have always had. You always had to pay to get into the main park. There were rides that cost money. Private events always took place at spots like Atlantis that either required tickets to be purchased, or were exclusive. Food and drink were never free. And the concert venue has been pay to play for ages. In short, the park was alwasy a mix of accessible public and private space. In fact ( and I'm just going from memory here ... ), I believe there will be more accessible free space in the new model than there used to be in the original days.

I'm also on side with you @Natika33 . We have enough of the same old same old all over, and I personally welcome some diversity of the space use. I mean, if you want to celebrate Ontario and all that it is, we are surrounded by it and there is no shortage of offerings all around the GTA from rock climbing, trails, hiking, canoeing, and so on. I'd argue that most residents, tourists, and people in general are not in the 'core' of the largest city in Canada because they want to experience the 'rural nature' of Ontario. Our city is much more cosmopolitan today, and I believe using Ontario Place to represent more urban feeling offerings makes perfect sense.

 

[3Dementia]

The city badly needs more and more accessible parkland.

I‘m only trading CNE space as a last resort to preserve waterfront. I would rather push to make Premier Fords follies fit into the existing site, while increasing access to the site and to the waterfront, or perhaps parking the follies on the rail deck?

imo everyone is asleep at wheel... not one comment on creek's idea to stick Therme etc. on Rail Deck. It's forest for the trees brilliant.

Ontario Place gets another chance at a better re-think, Exhibition Place is not impacted and CRAFT/Kingsmen will be drooling at unbelievable amenities next door to the 478,090 condos they have to sell.

This is a two birds one stone accelerator for 2 mega-projects. Duh....

 

[Northern Light]

I'm kind of confused by all the comments re/ public vs private.

Is it the 'idea' of private enterprise that is bending noses?

I think it's specifically a shift from public, to private.

What exactly is the issue with the new place offering a mix of public and private paid options?

Therme would dominate the space, this is not an even split; but also, this IS public space, we don't expect, generally speaking, private owners to offer up public space on their property (lets not get into POPs among other things)........

I'm not sure why public space should give way to private.

The reason I ask is that I don't see the difference from what we have always had. You always had to pay to get into the main park.

Actually this is not the case, General Admission to Ontario Place was free in the latter years. And always free when you bought admission to the Ex as well.

But yes, there was a time during which admission was charged. Though the concert venue (Forum) was free with admission for most events.

Worth saying, even when admission was charged, it was very cheap, $2.50 in 1978, which adjusted for inflation would be $10.32 today.

There were rides that cost money. Private events always took place at spots like Atlantis that either required tickets to be purchased, or were exclusive.

Atlantis was not original to the park. That space used to be public and free.

Food and drink were never free.

True

And the concert venue has been pay to play for ages.

Since '95; the Forum was free from 1971-1994

In short, the park was alwasy a mix of accessible public and private space. In fact ( and I'm just going from memory here ... ), I believe there will be more accessible free space in the new model than there used to be in the original days.

Fuzzy, but yes, in certain respects.

I'm also on side with you @Natika33 . We have enough of the same old same old all over, and I personally welcome some diversity of the space use. I mean, if you want to celebrate Ontario and all that it is, we are surrounded by it and there is no shortage of offerings all around the GTA from rock climbing, trails, hiking, canoeing, and so on. I'd argue that most residents, tourists, and people in general are not in the 'core' of the largest city in Canada because they want to experience the 'rural nature' of Ontario. Our city is much more cosmopolitan today, and I believe using Ontario Place to represent more urban feeling offerings makes perfect sense.

I'd be fine w/this statement up to a point; except.........A spa/pool as giant tourism generator and reflector of the urban/cosmopolitan experience?

There's no Therme in Paris, or NYC, or New Orleans or SF or Rome etc. I don't view this as a tourism generator. I don't see people flying to Toronto to go to Therme.

 

[JasonParis]

I'm kind of confused by all the comments re/ public vs private.

I get what you are saying, and unlike some, I'm not rallying against some private uses at the park as you've quite rightly pointed out - have always been there! I think Trillium Park has given many a taste of what much of the remaining lands could be. Yes, people miss The Forum but are at peace with whatever Live Nation brings to Budweiser Stage. The recreational playground (now canceled) was pretty modest and probably reminded some of the former children's playground (which was arguably the best in the world). I think the heart of the matter goes to the spa. It's on a huge amount of the grounds (arguably the best bits), will almost certainly be expensive to experience, won't look anything like the renderings, and turns some of the city's best current and potential parkland into a private fortress. The reality is the spa could be moved across Lake Shore or put on Rail Deck Park and would likely work just as fine, maybe better.

 

[Lyphe]

Good points on all.

As much as the spa doesn't offend me, and could be a tourist draw if done well enough ( think Blue Lagoon 'esk from Iceland ), I also agree that it could just as easily be moved to the Ex grounds. That would probably be better for all parties concerned. I guess one of the big variables, as noted by you @JasonParis , is execution. If they execute as promised, then I have to think it would be a win. If it's value engineered into the ground, then that would be quite unfortunate. Based on today's news, it sounds like nothing is really set in stone at this time, so we shall see!

 

[3Dementia]

ONTARIO PLACE REDUX: I drag this out every three or four years.. might be of interest to new members.

Here’s a re-think of my original masterplan fantasy that A) still adds some new and well-themed OP attractions, B) adds back more parkland than my masterplan had (the entire south and east portions of the site returned to green space), and C) makes the most out of all-season entertainment at the new and improved amphitheatre.

On the aerial below:

IGNORE (delete):
A. the huge pyramid ∆ WaterPark-Carribbean spa concept that Therme stole from me ;-). That would be parkland. Maybe keep the beach though.

B. the waterfront hotel and pin-wheel day cottage piers, parking structures etc. This would be more parkland.

KEEP:
C. The new and improved all-weather/all-season “Amphitheatre” with the translucent “fan” retractable roof (similar to Miller Park in Milwaukee but much smaller). More protected permanent seating but still some grass seating for good weather.

D. The green-ish curvy molusk-shaped volumes which I nicked-named “Light, Motion & Sound”, which is a museum celebrating Canadian innovations/inventions, music etc. (see my note below if you want a PDF of the whole idea).

E. The “Chris Hadfield Planetarium” and “Canadian Space Exhibit” (museum) - the blue dome in the centre of the aerial.

Oh… and keep my $Billon(s?) floating community called “Arcology Village” on the left above ^^ immediately west of Ontario Place... which was inspired in part by Eb Zeider’s original plans for Ontario Place that included a huge village called “Harbour City”.

You can read the whole OP Redux fantasy in a PDF if you want. Just start a Conversation with me and include your email address. I'll send it to you.

 

[Natika33]

Good points on all.

As much as the spa doesn't offend me, and could be a tourist draw if done well enough ( think Blue Lagoon 'esk from Iceland ), I also agree that it could just as easily be moved to the Ex grounds. That would probably be better for all parties concerned. I guess one of the big variables, as noted by you @JasonParis , is execution. If they execute as promised, then I have to think it would be a win. If it's value engineered into the ground, then that would be quite unfortunate. Based on today's news, it sounds like nothing is really set in stone at this time, so we shall see!

Again, this is a bit of a personal thing, but I liked the idea of the spa right on the water (not moved further away to the EX grounds or a "rail deck park") as it reminded me of similar "sentos" I used to enjoy in Japan. I was looking forward to watching the snow fall over the lake in winter and the blurring of indoor/outdoor in summer. We really have few options for lounging right directly on the water while still indoors in Ontario and TO. (Affordable "waterfront" restaurants are actually set back with a path between the restaurant and the water most of the time).

 

[toast_and_tea]

... But bring back 'The Children's Village' which I loved as a kid ...

Oh my goodness, yes! Get kids out of the house and off their screens so they can run through a punching bag forest, throw themselves between sheets of rubber, and jump and flip on a bouncy mattress the size of a football field (or so it felt).

 

[Towered]

Oh my goodness, yes! Get kids out of the house and off their screens so they can run through a punching bag forest, throw themselves between sheets of rubber, and jump and flip on a bouncy mattress the size of a football field (or so it felt).

Hell, make one for adults as well - I would totally still do that now if there were a place for it.