Toronto Southcore Financial Centre & Delta Toronto | 159.71m | 45s | GWL | KPMB

[CITY_LOVER]

True, Platform 27, and thanks for the comprehensive answer, but I guess it's hard for me to accept that reality. LOL and at the same time.

Anyway, if I had to look at what companies are most likely to have presence in the core, i think my office-tower-construction wet-dream would be the following:

1) The supposed AON lead-tenant for the Bremner tower
2) The move of Ernst & Young to the Ice office tower as a lead tenant
3) The move of Deloitte & Touche to the Richmond-Adelaide III tower as a lead tenant
4) The move of Scotia Bank to Bay Adelaide Centre II
5) A presence of Quebec-based Desjardins to the 45 Bay Street site (SITQ?), which would ideally be a truly-mixed use building - a bus terminal, 20-25 floors of offices, 15 floors of hotel and 40 storeys of residential units

The emptying out of the current MINT towers due to relocation of E&Y, D&T and Scotia Bank would eventually be absorbed (over several years) by the continued expansion of BMO, TD, CIBC, etc., gradually resulting in reasonable vacancy rates for these traditional bank towers. Furthermore, since the aforementioned new towers would take three or more years to build, by the time they hit the market, there could hopefully be further space absorption in these towers to bring down their vacancy rates to reasonable levels as well.

The above-mentioned five towers amount to roughly five million sq. ft. and combined with RBC Waterpark Place's 900K+ sq. ft. would imply that about six million sq. ft. of office space could be under construction in the core (in addition to the Richmond Queen building in King West, MARS II and Sick Kids' Research). Wouldn't that be great!

I strongly believe that even if all this space was added to the core in the next four-five years, the vacancy rate would not climb above 10% (a healthy global average).

Then we would need to figure out which tenants we can get to start construction of the other pending office towers (i.e. 171 Front St., the Simcoe tower, etc.).

 

[canarob]

True, Platform 27, and thanks for the comprehensive answer, but I guess it's hard for me to accept that reality. LOL and at the same time.

Anyway, if I had to look at what companies are most likely to have presence in the core, i think my office-tower-construction wet-dream would be the following:

1) The supposed AON lead-tenant for the Bremner tower
2) The move of Ernst & Young to the Ice office tower as a lead tenant
3) The move of Deloitte & Touche to the Richmond-Adelaide III tower as a lead tenant
4) The move of Scotia Bank to Bay Adelaide Centre II
5) A presence of Quebec-based Desjardins to the 45 Bay Street site (SITQ?), which would ideally be a truly-mixed use building - a bus terminal, 20-25 floors of offices, 15 floors of hotel and 40 storeys of residential units

The emptying out of the current MINT towers due to relocation of E&Y, D&T and Scotia Bank would eventually be absorbed (over several years) by the continued expansion of BMO, TD, CIBC, etc., gradually resulting in reasonable vacancy rates for these traditional bank towers. Furthermore, since the aforementioned new towers would take three or more years to build, by the time they hit the market, there could hopefully be further space absorption in these towers to bring down their vacancy rates to reasonable levels as well.

The above-mentioned five towers amount to roughly five million sq. ft. and combined with RBC Waterpark Place's 900K+ sq. ft. would imply that about six million sq. ft. of office space could be under construction in the core (in addition to the Richmond Queen building in King West, MARS II and Sick Kids' Research). Wouldn't that be great!

I strongly believe that even if all this space was added to the core in the next four-five years, the vacancy rate would not climb above 10% (a healthy global average).

Then we would need to figure out which tenants we can get to start construction of the other pending office towers (i.e. 171 Front St., the Simcoe tower, etc.).

I've always assumed that a lot of the empty MINT space would be filled by law firm expansions, foreign financial firms setting up Canadian locations, etc. We tend to focus a lot on the big tenants that are needed to construct a new tower, but existing space could have dozen of new tenants who don't need much in the way of square footage.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think you hit it on the nail ... the one thing to keep in mind, a driving force behind many of these moves ... environmental awareness and reduced operating expenses; The newly constructed buildings generally have this to offer in comparison to the existing stock.

The bank buildings are getting LEED upgrades applied to the existing structures. The buildings that pre-date TD Centre or the smaller office buildings will have a harder time justifying the upgrades with less floor space to spread the costs over, and differing upgrade flexibility in the way they were constructed.

I would expect RBC moving out of RBC Plaza to trigger some upgrades to their space and then moves of smaller tennants from Commerce Court and TD Centre into RBC Plaza. I can't help but think that RBC Plaza being Barrick Gold Plaza would make sense.

 

[taal]

The bank buildings are getting LEED upgrades applied to the existing structures. The buildings that pre-date TD Centre or the smaller office buildings will have a harder time justifying the upgrades with less floor space to spread the costs over, and differing upgrade flexibility in the way they were constructed.

I would expect RBC moving out of RBC Plaza to trigger some upgrades to their space and then moves of smaller tennants from Commerce Court and TD Centre into RBC Plaza. I can't help but think that RBC Plaza being Barrick Gold Plaza would make sense.

No no ... RBC plaza, both buildings are now nearly 100% occupied, and RBC is NOT vacating the small portion they have in the taller tower, we've been over this a couple times now They relocating from other offices. Recall only their 'Canadian headquarter operations' will be moving. The rest including trading is remaining in rbc plaza.

RBC plaza actually was one of the first to do a reno, so they beet the others to the block, no certifcation I believe though.

The other big building, which has a lot of vacancy (the most in the core @ about 40%) is Commerce court, I could see that being redone.

 

[Bruvyman]

I came to this thread in the hopes of some updates on the construction of the Bremner tower and Delta hotel. Apparently this isn't the right place for such a discussion. Would someone kindly point me in the right direction? Thanks.

 

[Jasonzed]

from yesterday...

 

[Automation Gallery]

Rumour out there, has them closing the downtown Delta Chelsea once this is completed.

From Gil over at SSC...
Not quite sure where this would go, but a source from the Delta Chelsea said that they'd be closing the hotel in 2 years once the new Southcore Delta is completed. Anybody want to speculate as to what will become of the Delta Chelsea site once the move is complete?

 

[Xray_Crystal_Junkie]

I thought it was established a while ago that it is not closing simply that the company that owns/runs it (not Delta) would be reopening under the banner of a different hotel chain.

 

[Miscreant]

That's a huge piece of real state. So if the the current Chelsea meets an undignified end with a wrecking ball, something(s) quite nice could pop up here.

 

[gabe]

Rumour out there, has them closing the downtown Delta Chelsea once this is completed.

From Gil over at SSC...
Not quite sure where this would go, but a source from the Delta Chelsea said that they'd be closing the hotel in 2 years once the new Southcore Delta is completed. Anybody want to speculate as to what will become of the Delta Chelsea site once the move is complete?

The Delta Chelsea is the largest hotel in Canada. After the new Delta is complete I wonder if their will be enough demand to fill a 1500 room hotel?

 

[Xray_Crystal_Junkie]

Tell that to Shangri La, Four Seasons, Trump, Bisha, and Thompson. And apparently we're loosing Sutton as well as another hotel being torn down for condos that escapes me at the moment.

Why is everyone here obsessed with tearing down such a large functional building? Pick a parking lot, any parking lot, to pin your hopes on for our next spandrel covered mess.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I have a feeling the clientele for the new Delta is going to be quite different from that of the Delta Chelsea. The former is probably more oriented towards the business crowd above all else.

AoD

 

[whatever]

Has anyone walked by this recently? It must be getting close to street level in some spots

 

[OldManKensey]

I walked by earlier this week. The Delta is getting very, very close to ground level in the rear, north-west corner. There is loads of activity on this site, what with three tower cranes. It will be a fun one to watch rise, although I am curious as to how the massive blank wall on west side of 18 York's podium will be integrated into the new Bremner tower.

 

[gabe]

Tell that to Shangri La, Four Seasons, Trump, Bisha, and Thompson. And apparently we're loosing Sutton as well as another hotel being torn down for condos that escapes me at the moment.

Why is everyone here obsessed with tearing down such a large functional building? Pick a parking lot, any parking lot, to pin your hopes on for our next spandrel covered mess.

We're losing Sutton Place and The Hilton Garden Inn on 200 Dundas Street East. Toronto needs more mid level hotels. I agree plenty of parking lots to develop for condo's. I can see in the future the lower to mid level hotels being built as small infill buildings like you see in NYC.