Tewder
Senior Member
... or simply as popular? People have a connection to those signs that runs beyond the 'academic'.
Toronto Ryerson Student Learning Centre | 50.59m | 8s | Ryerson University | Zeidler
- Thread starter Bogtrotter
- Start date
jje1000
Senior Member
Not so much misquoting as it is a simple substitution. If you don't want Sam the Record Man's signs back, give a reason other than the very vague and subjective 'it's only sentimentality'. How don't they fit? Are they ugly? Why shouldn't they remain in the area? Are there fears that they may deface Snøhetta's clean design? Do they cost too much?
Not to elevate Sam the Record Man's status more than it is, but saying that sentimentality is only reason why people want it to stay is essentially a statement that the signs hold no other value whatsoever.
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Bayer
Senior Member
What about a retail sign museum? Gather them all up as development rolls along. Sam the Record Man's neon, the old Eaton's and Simpson's signage, the orange Harvey's that was once on the corner of Bloor and Yonge, Cash Money Payday signs that once ran up and down Yonge--I'm sure someone somewhere has emotional attachments to them all...
Great idea, we could set them up in their own special section at The Guild.
MetroMan
Senior Member
Josh Matlow supports bringing back the signs: https://twitter.com/joshmatlow/status/135457805724422146
Let's hold him and other councillors to it.
Let's hold him and other councillors to it.
Torontovibe
Senior Member
He's not the only one. There are many other people besides myself, who see the value of that sign. It's not just sentimental. I think it's a great piece of street art that's unique to Toronto and just adds a nice bit of colour to Yonge Street. It's the small things like that, that brand Toronto. As soon as you see it in a movie or picture, you know it's Toronto. I also much prefer neon to LEDs.
Then there is also the issue of Ryerson trying to back out of a deal they made with the city. What message does that send out if they are allowed to break a commitment so easily? Why wouldn't other developers also try that shit if Ryerson is allowed to get away with it. It's a matter of principle.
How many great or iconic neon signs does Toronto have? The Sam's sign is one of the very few this city has and once they are gone, you won't see them replaced. (with neon) You will see the cheap, bland crap that we have in Dundas Square, which pales in comparison.
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1085371--fate-of-sam-the-record-man-s-sign-uncertain
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yyzer
Senior Member
This would be my fear....of course the signs are important, and should be saved, but within the right context...the best place would be somewhere on the square...tacking them onto the beautiful Snohetta building would be totally out of context, and would mess with the artistic integrity of the new building..
jje1000
Senior Member
I think they'd fit on the inside, with the spiraling motif they seem to be going for.
Mississauga Slim
Active Member
Small things seem big when you're really close to them. This, I argue, is the main driver behind the brouhaha over the Sam's sign. The more they mean to you personally, the more important they will seem.
When the signs were still up and the store fresh in memory, I recall that the prevailing sentiment was that they were practically sacred fixtures. Now, with the passage of only a few years, a more "I could take it or leave it" attitude is becoming more common. In yet another decade how significant will this signage seem? To people who have no memory of the store? To people who will have no memory of what a "record" is? In a context where they will be overwhelmed by other, more high-tech and gargantuan distractions? They will be two, small, spinning neon discs of uncertain provenance and obscure meaning. A curiosity maybe, to the extent that they will even be noticed.
Not that this would necessarily be a bad thing. But, I submit that the argument that the sign needs to stay on the street on the basis of its cultural significance is greatly overstated. The most appropriate place for it, given the kind of historical artifact it has become, is in a museum, as others have suggested. Unfortunately there is not yet a museum of Toronto in which to put it. We can hope that someday there will be.
As for your other point, I would never make this same statement about the Board of Trade building, or the General Post Office, or what have you. And yet you have quoted me as having done so. This is what is commonly understood by the term "misquoting."
Finally, I have lots of memories myself of good old Sam's. Besides doing a lot of shopping there back in the day, I also worked there from 1991 to 1993 in the Classical department. I was just a young guy then. It was definitely a very old school store. One thing I remember was the Christmas parties, which were down in the basement after hours. The main part of the basement was unchanged since the late 19th century. It was dark with rough stone walls. We'd be down there, drinking Christmas punch and making merry in this dark dingy little place. I recall Mr. Sniderman appearing at the top of the stairs in his bold, double-breasted suit. He didn't come down, but stood at the top and bellowed down to us: "GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!" It was like something out of Dickens.
MetroMan
Senior Member
Going back a few pages, androidUK pointed out that the application photo shows the Sam sign on the building. There is room at street level for the sign.
Here are the signs:
Build them just above the entrance to the retail windows. They wouldn't go on the actual building, just on the podium.
I think the problem is in the price. Ryerson now realizes they're going to spend $250K to restore and remount the sign, but that is their problem, not the city's. They were allowed to tear down the Sam the Record Man building on the condition that they would put the sign back up. They should have figured that price into their building budget.
Tough luck. Put the signs back up.
Here are the signs:
Build them just above the entrance to the retail windows. They wouldn't go on the actual building, just on the podium.
I think the problem is in the price. Ryerson now realizes they're going to spend $250K to restore and remount the sign, but that is their problem, not the city's. They were allowed to tear down the Sam the Record Man building on the condition that they would put the sign back up. They should have figured that price into their building budget.
Tough luck. Put the signs back up.
Mississauga Slim
Active Member
The sign shown in the rendering is obviously not the one that some people are concerned about. And even that much looks ridiculous.
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MetroMan
Senior Member
I agree it doesn't fit, but didn't Ryerson think of that when they agreed to restoring the sign? They had to, and if they agreed to it, anticipating that they'd get to this point and then go back on their promise, then they did it in bad faith.
I think the sign belongs on Yonge St. but I also agree that it will be a little odd on the new building, specially if it's hanging above the entrance to a totally unrelated store. That being said, a good compromise would be to hang the original sign in the Student Learning Centre's lobby as a piece of modern art and then commission an artist (i.e. United Visual Artists) to design a modern interpretation of the sign on or behind the glass of the building facing Yonge St.
I think the sign belongs on Yonge St. but I also agree that it will be a little odd on the new building, specially if it's hanging above the entrance to a totally unrelated store. That being said, a good compromise would be to hang the original sign in the Student Learning Centre's lobby as a piece of modern art and then commission an artist (i.e. United Visual Artists) to design a modern interpretation of the sign on or behind the glass of the building facing Yonge St.
jje1000
Senior Member
You can say that about every building. What about something like the Toronto Board of Trade building? Once it became a parking lot, any feelings people have would have dissipated as they went along their daily lives. Something can only create new sentiments and memories when it is actually present- which is why Ryerson should not be allowed to walk away from this. Putting it in a museum is akin to facadism- you lose the context, and as a result- it's simply a sign in a room somewhere else in the city.
I may have misquoted, but I did so to point out the fact your statement is still very subjective. You can substitute any demolished building into there, and it could very much be true. We've seen this before throughout history, when people denigrate any unique features a building can have, hand-waving any support as being merely due to 'sentiment'.
Which is why it belongs in an spot indoors approximately where Sam's once stood. I've seen similar wall-mounted sculptures along a single floor before- there's no reason why it can't fit. There's ways to be creative, as Metroman shows below:
Metroman said:
And the sign's pretty abstract and modern anyways. It's not some Victorian doohickey.
Edit:
Ryerson should have known this before agreeing to anything. If the city allows them to back off on things like these, it sets a bad precedent for developments to come.
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MetroMan
Senior Member
I think it could look quite good. LED's behind the glass skin of the new building invisible during the day, but shining the pattern and movement of the old SAM signs at night when the originals made their iconic mark on the Yonge St. streets cape. The original sign would hang beautifully in the lobby of the building, open for anybody to see a bit of Toronto history.
neubilder
Banned
Of course! It belongs at Dundas Square.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
There are issues of practicality here - the space along Yonge is intended for retail - why would any potential tenants want a sign there that would distract their products and compete with the signage of a company that no longer exist?
And sorry, comparing the sign to Toronto Board of Trade building is somewhat off-based IMO - the former is an artifact as MS has already mentioned; the latter is a building. No one is clamouring for the preservation of the Sam building itself and that's pretty telling. The equivalent, if you should apply it to the TBT building would be selective preservation of architectural elements - and surely that's not what you are proposing.
AoD
And sorry, comparing the sign to Toronto Board of Trade building is somewhat off-based IMO - the former is an artifact as MS has already mentioned; the latter is a building. No one is clamouring for the preservation of the Sam building itself and that's pretty telling. The equivalent, if you should apply it to the TBT building would be selective preservation of architectural elements - and surely that's not what you are proposing.
AoD