Toronto Police Service Reformation

[lenaitch]

I wonder if anybody, particularly those who support eliminating the police from mental health/wellness, etc. incidents, has bothered to ask the Ministry of Health, Canadian Mental Health Association or whomever they envision picking up that torch if they would be actually be willing to do it. If so, what would be the staffing, resources and training costs, safety equipment, etc. for 24/7 coverage. If, as some demand, police are completely eliminated from the equation, there had best a plan for when things go pear-shaped despite their best intentions, or staffing lags calls. Creating mobile police/mental health teams may well improve outcomes, but it certainly won't reduce costs. How do we defund the police now without having a Plan B in place.

The radical 'eliminate the police' crowd is getting in the way of a reasoned discussion.

 

[Jasmine18]

I wonder if anybody, particularly those who support eliminating the police from mental health/wellness, etc. incidents, has bothered to ask the Ministry of Health, Canadian Mental Health Association or whomever they envision picking up that torch if they would be actually be willing to do it. If so, what would be the staffing, resources and training costs, safety equipment, etc. for 24/7 coverage. If, as some demand, police are completely eliminated from the equation, there had best a plan for when things go pear-shaped despite their best intentions, or staffing lags calls. Creating mobile police/mental health teams may well improve outcomes, but it certainly won't reduce costs. How do we defund the police now without having a Plan B in place.

The radical 'eliminate the police' crowd is getting in the way of a reasoned discussion.

That's why I dislike Twitter.

Lol

 

[Northern Light]

I wonder if anybody, particularly those who support eliminating the police from mental health/wellness, etc. incidents, has bothered to ask the Ministry of Health, Canadian Mental Health Association or whomever they envision picking up that torch if they would be actually be willing to do it. If so, what would be the staffing, resources and training costs, safety equipment, etc. for 24/7 coverage. If, as some demand, police are completely eliminated from the equation, there had best a plan for when things go pear-shaped despite their best intentions, or staffing lags calls. Creating mobile police/mental health teams may well improve outcomes, but it certainly won't reduce costs. How do we defund the police now without having a Plan B in place.

The radical 'eliminate the police' crowd is getting in the way of a reasoned discussion.

The vote of Council was to adopt the Cahoots program or equivalent.

CAHOOTS (crisis response) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is expressly for non-violent calls for mental health and seems to have worked quite well for decades.

I would suspect Mobile Crisis units would then be the lead for violent calls. (armed officer attached to call).

 

[Max Sterling]

I'm also very open minded to consider a number of causes and solutions.

Are you really legitimately open minded? It seems like anytime someone mentions that a major part of the solution is to hold people accountable and to get them to make changes and improve, then all of a sudden that 'open mindedness' disappears. Can society make changes to help and support these people? Sure. But that effort is largely pointless unless the people affected make significant changes as well to help themselves.

This is like two people rowing a boat. If only one party is rowing then all you do is go around in circles, but if you row together then you start making real progress to your destination.

You victim blame, provide no evidence to support your views; and dismiss the views of those who are far more educated and thoughtful on this or other subjects.

Are you serious???!?! All those shootings and people murdered involving mostly one group of people year after year ISN'T proof that some people have more significant problems than others that need to be dealt with ASAP? All the video evidence and statistics that have been gathered over many years isn't good enough for you? Really? And how is it 'victim blaming' when people are criticizing THE BEHAVIOR of people and wanting them to change and improve?

Also lets not talk about races/ethnicities of people and lets talk about kids for a moment. Lets just say you have a child in school and he starts acting up violently and is being really disruptive in class and the school's principal informs you of your child's behavior. Isn't the logical and reasonable thing to do would be to acknowledge the problem and tell the principal that you'll discipline your child and teach them to behave better and if you need extra help then to ask for it?

Don't you think that would be a reasonable response to the situation compared to perhaps when informed that your child is acting out you instead get angry and lash out and say 'Don't blame my child! He's fine and its you people who are picking on him and not the other kids! Why aren't you taking more care in handling my child and treating him the same as other kids? You people need to get your act together and do better!'

Which do you think is the more sensible and reasonable response when as a parent you're alerted to your child's not so good behavior? And yet these days putting any responsibility on the child and parent would be considered bad because holding certain people accountable is just wrong no matter what. That's where we're at in society now where holding people accountable for anything especially crime and violence is simply not possible because that's just considered racist and bigoted if the wrong people are involved.

 

[lenaitch]

The vote of Council was to adopt the Cahoots program or equivalent.

CAHOOTS (crisis response) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is expressly for non-violent calls for mental health and seems to have worked quite well for decades.

I would suspect Mobile Crisis units would then be the lead for violent calls. (armed officer attached to call).

Fair point if the action of council ended the protests. I'm not convinced. I'm also concerned if the level either escalates after the MH workers attend, or if the incident is more violent than reported or involves weapons not reported. Perhaps the Cahoots/other similar programs addresses these issues; I'm not familiar with them.

 

[Jasmine18]

I am getting annoyed with people bringing in European style solutions and forgetting we are in North America.

Disarming the police is silly if we have a gun problem with the USA.

and before people say "how many shootouts the Police and Gangs have a year" maybe the police have guns too is why there are none XD

 

[Northern Light]

From the Globe and Mail, the Human Rights Commission recently adjudicated on the case of a female police officer, with Toronto Police, who alleged her colleagues and superiors sexually harassed her or condoned same.

The HRC found her to be credible and ruled accordingly notwithstanding a parade of officers who either denied the conduct or minimized it.

She was awarded $85,000; but the HRC also ordered new training for all officers at the division in question to address the work environment.

Female constable’s case forces Toronto Police to address sexual harassment

Disregarding testimony from police officers, human-rights tribunal awards $85,000 to Heather McWilliam, who faced poisoned workplace at 23 Division

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[Admiral Beez]

I am getting annoyed with people bringing in European style solutions and forgetting we are in North America.

Disarming the police is silly if we have a gun problem with the USA.

and before people say "how many shootouts the Police and Gangs have a year" maybe the police have guns too is why there are none XD

I agree for the most part, but neither are we like the USA. Like European solutions, those proposed for the US equally don't apply here. We're in the middle, so I'm okay with looking everywhere for solutions and ideas.

 

[Jasmine18]

I agree for the most part, but neither are we like the USA. Like European solutions, those proposed for the US equally don't apply here. We're in the middle, so I'm okay with looking everywhere for solutions and ideas.

I mean we dont need tanks like USA where cops assume the public is a threat but we have gun issues so expecting cops to not have guns like England is nonsensical as well.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I mean we dont need tanks like USA where cops assume the public is a threat but we have gun issues so expecting cops to not have guns like England is nonsensical as well.

What England has that Toronto could use is beat cops.... cops not in cars, or on horseback or on bikes, but actually on their feet, walking the neighbourhood. Same as in Manhattan, NY, there's a cop on her/his/zim feet on every corner it seems.

I also like how London, UK has PCSO (Police community support officer) who are unarmed, community police, akin to Toronto's parking enforcement officers, again walking the neighbourhood, showing the flag and keeping a watch out.

 

[picard102]

NYC and London both have many more officers per capita than toronto, by 3x.
Now that we're more interested in defunding it will be hard to get to that level of officers.

 

[Jasmine18]

What England has that Toronto could use is beat cops.... cops not in cars, or on horseback or on bikes, but actually on their feet, walking the neighbourhood. Same as in Manhattan, NY, there's a cop on her/his/zim feet on every corner it seems.

I also like how London, UK has PCSO (Police community support officer) who are unarmed, community police, akin to Toronto's parking enforcement officers, again walking the neighbourhood, showing the flag and keeping a watch out.

Well a good way to have more beat cops if we defund the police.

 

[Admiral Beez]

NYC and London both have many more officers per capita than toronto, by 3x.
Now that we're more interested in defunding it will be hard to get to that level of officers.

Not a problem at all. Ditch the pricey car or horse, and launch a lower class of constable for less, but still good wages.

 

[Northern Light]

NYC and London both have many more officers per capita than toronto, by 3x.
Now that we're more interested in defunding it will be hard to get to that level of officers.

Why would we want that many officers?

By my read, Toronto has a lower crime rate, and a higher level of safety than London, UK.

Same when we compare to NYC.

According to The Economist, when ranking personal security, Toronto is the 8th safest city on the planet.

https://safecities.economist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Aug-5-ENG-NEC-Safe-Cities-2019-270x210-19-screen.pdf

For comparison, London, UK is #22, NYC is #30

I think I like our strategy better.

Their's seems to equal more cops, more crime.

Assuming we want compare ourselves to those who actually achieve greater safety, ahead of us on the list are, Singapore, Copenhagen,HK, Tokyo, Wellington, Stockholm, and Osaka.

Lets rule out Singapore as we are not and will not be a police-state, and HK as well, give their current situation.

Lets look at the most realistic comparators.

Copenhagen Police are really functionally part of the Danish police and their national ratio works out to 172 per 100,000, roughly in line w/Toronto

Likewise NZ police are really a national system. The all-in number works out to 230 per 100,000

But in both of the above cases their federal police (our RCMP federal unit) is an integrated number.

So the functional municipal level numbers are lower.

 

[picard102]

Not a problem at all. Ditch the pricey car or horse, and launch a lower class of constable for less, but still good wages.

Not sure cars and horses are an impediment to hiring more officers.

Why would we want that many officers?

If the goal is to have officers on every corner, then we'd want many more officers.