Pearl Place | 121m | 34s | Conservatory Group | Richmond Architects

UD2

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Resell condos at NYCC can still be found at mid 400s per square foot, which makes any new condos asking at 600+ per square a hard sale.

The two developments at Daimond and 5959 Yonge are taking quite a long time to hit 75% pre sales. I suspect any movement on new developments will start only after the existing inventories begin construction.
 

maestro

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The first real push of this 20 year long boom started in NYCC so it makes some sense it would be the first to peter out.
 

taal

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I don't know if that's the case re: peter out; More akin to what new condos can sale for; You probably can't hit the price points you can in Y&E and downtown and land is probably still worth a lot;

So they just hold on until prices rise slowly ; There is less inventory so they can charge more; Still surprised me how much Hullmark / Gibson square went for !

See Y&E has very little older stock to compete against, so it's easier there.
 

sunnyraytoronto

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Resell condos at NYCC can still be found at mid 400s per square foot, which makes any new condos asking at 600+ per square a hard sale.

The two developments at Daimond and 5959 Yonge are taking quite a long time to hit 75% pre sales. I suspect any movement on new developments will start only after the existing inventories begin construction.


It's not just price,... but also wait time to get units,....

Everything in NYCC had 100m height limit (about 30 storey for condo or 21 storey for offices); that is until Menkes GibsonSquare went to OMB and got over 100m (125 or 140m and went with twin 42 storey towers at 137.2m). Then came Bazis EmeraldPark 40 and 30+2 towers (143m) and Tridel Hullmark 45 storey (12 office + 33 residential condo) and 35 storey residential condo) at 160m. These are the only 3 projects in NYCC that exceeds the former 100m height limit.

Anyone who have ever read any of my post knows where this is going,.... yes, it's Bazis EmeraldPark fault! Here's the thing, Bazis started selling EmeraldPark in July 2008 (before city even received development application) promising completion by 2011; didn't get approval until March 2010, construction started early 2011, completion set back to 2013, then 2015. And due to Bazis incompetency with construction, buyers waited 7 years for their units! Now who has any idea of what they'll be doing in 7 years?,... Especially younger folks buying condos?

Bazis EmeraldPark started this trend of selling condos before the development proposal even gets city approvals. Tridel HullmarkCentre was further along in their development proposal with city when they started selling in Oct 2008 and started construction in Fall 2010, completion was on time in Fall 2013 for South Tower and podium, North Tower took an extra year to Fall 2014 due to subway connection issues which delayed it for a year. That's 5-6 year wait time.

And you have these big 3 over 100m dual tower condo project (Menkes GibsonSquare, Bazis EmeraldPark and Tridel HullmarkCentre) constructed and opening at about the same time,.... Because the wait time ends up being so long, people's housing needs changes as their life changes,... thus, 70% of EmeraldPark and HullmarkCentre residential condo units are rental VS 35% for other NYCC condos. Out of these 70% rentals at EmeraldPark and HullmarkCentre,... say half were real investors wanting to rent out units anyways,... and other half were condo-buyers who ended up stuck with condos after their personal housing needs changes - these condo owners are the ones ready to sell at the right price,...

I would be nuts to say there's an oversupply of condos in NYCC,... but currently you could buy brand new condo units that opened a year ago and have never been lived in. Thus, why would anyone buy into a new NYCC condo project where they would have to wait years for those condo units to be available?

In NYCC, previously with a new condo tower opening every 3-4 months, there's usually about 5 cranes at anytime during the last 20 years,.... but a few years ago with Menkes GibsonSquare, Tridel HullmarkCentre and Bazis EmeraldPark all under construction at the same time - that's 6 cranes plus whatever for the regular developments for a total of about 10 cranes,.... today, there's just one crane at Sorbara's Beacon.

Sorbara's Beacon which is currently under construction was marketed only after they got city planning approvals. G-groups Centrium2 (Ellie) is now being marketed after they've slightly altered the already approved development proposal for the original Centrium. For both of these, we're talking a more reasonable wait time of about 3 years.
 

sunnyraytoronto

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The first real push of this 20 year long boom started in NYCC so it makes some sense it would be the first to peter out.

Actually, NYCC has seen a 40 year construction boom and continuing,... it's not petering out,... just dealing with "changing priorities" and refocusing further outside the NYCC core.

40 years ago, prior to the mid-1970's NYCC was just full of bungalows on huge lots and strip plazas along Yonge. Then came the execution of Mel Lastman's plan, Yonge Subway extension to YorkMills (1973), Sheppard (1974) and Finch (1974) and completion of first major development in 1976: SheppardCentre with 2 office tower on Yonge, 3 apartment towers along Doris, retail mall podium and direct subway connection.

From mid-1970's to mid-1990's the NYCC construction boom was office towers along Yonge (SheppardCentre, ProctorGamble Building, MadisonCentre, WarnerBrothers building, RBC building, Scotiabank building, Xerox, NorthAmerican Life, NorthYorkCityCentre, Nestle Tower) and condo/apartment buildings off Yonge surrounded by Service Ring Roads of Doris & Beecroft.

In early 1990's office market tanked and NYCC construction refocused on residential condos,.... EmpressWalk (4 condo tower, retail mall podium) was first 2 residential condo towers allowed on Yonge Street completed in 1998 and 2000; and that set off the wave of residential condo project right on Yonge Street with higher visibility. MacleanHunter land became Avondale Community condominiums now with about 15 condo towers and townhouses. During this 20 year wave, we've seen over 60 residential condo towers but only one office tower built in NYCC,....

After 40 years of constant construction, the North York Centre Secondary Plan area (Yonge corridor between Doris & Beecroft from 401 to Finch Hydro Corridor) is now about 70% filled,... most of the prime corner land taken or held with strong conditions by city. For a developer to parcel together a large lot, now requires piecing together numerous smaller lots and dealing with more sellers; thus increasing land acquisition costs and logistics.

There are larger lots in the North Yonge Secondary Plan area (Yonge corridor between Doris Extension & Beecroft Extension from Finch Hydro Corridor to Steeles) which originally city didn't want to allow high density development until Yonge subway extension happens,... in 30 years,... but last Fall Silvercore got NorthTown plaza redevelopment approval,... which is now producing a domino effect for other nearby high density development proposals in the Yonge & Cummer/Drewry area like Ghod's 5959 Yonge, 5840 Yonge, etc,.... one of which is ConservatoryGroup's Ruby condo at Inez Court,... which is one of the "changing priority" that ConservatoryGroup has been focusing on at City Planning,... instead of this project.
 

maestro

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You could say the whole city has been booming for 50+ years. I specifically referenced this boom that began in the late nineties within North York and Scarborough after a short drought from the last major bust. It wasn't Empress Walk but, the owner of Marel Drywall that decide to expanded into condo development to everyone's bewilderment. To no surprise he named the new company after the street he was building on as you wouldn't expect a ton of creativity from a drywall magnate. It's out by Finch Station.

A lot of the early focus has been on building affordable family sized units which our market doesn't allow anymore (like you said, the properties picked up for a song are all gone) and, closer to Finch, York University students which has been largely tapped out. It's still doing remarkably well considering these facts.
 

Edward Skira

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You could say the whole city has been booming for 50+ years. I specifically referenced this boom that began in the late nineties within North York and Scarborough after a short drought from the last major bust. It wasn't Empress Walk but, the owner of Marel Drywall that decide to expanded into condo development to everyone's bewilderment. To no surprise he named the new company after the street he was building on as you wouldn't expect a ton of creativity from a drywall magnate. It's out by Finch Station.

I lived in the area when that Pemberton building was built. Seemed to come out of nowhere.
 

sunnyraytoronto

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From here: http://pearlplacecondos.ca
Pearl Place Condos is a new mixed-use condominium development currently in pre-construction at 19 Hollywood Avenue from the Conservatory Group in Toronto, Ontario. It will consist of a 34 storey building with 431 dwelling units.
This 34 storey building will be 114 metres high with ground floor retail use (2,543.90 square metres) and the 2nd and 3rd floor for commercial use (5,979.50 square metres) in a three and four storey podium with a 30 storey tower above. There will be 431 residential units of which 198 are 1 bedroom units, 179 are 2 bedroom units and 54 are 3 bedroom units. Total residential space for this development is 37,192.50 square metres.

Those square metre breakdown of retail VS commercial office VS residential seems to be consistent with what I'm seeing after ConservatoryGroup got some of the commercial (office/retail) space converted to residential (only off by about a 100 m2 here and there; ie 1% or so). But the total residential units are off,.... instead of 431 residential condo units they'll have 478 residential condo units (47 more units; more than 10%); it was done without increasing density, thus, likely a greater proportion of 1-bedroom bachelor units.

And the 34 storey might have been increased to 35 storey?,... a-la Bazis EmeraldPark chopping ceiling height?!?!? All without changing the maximum residential height from 114m,... total height would be 114m for residential + whatever for mechanical and architectural features (usually another 10m or so).

In addition, last summer the retail space was reclassified to allow for supermarket,... approximately 27,000 square feet of possible supermarket retail space (basically entire first floor retail). Interestingly, last summer there was a rumoured that (Urban) Sobeys was opening shop somewhere in NYCC,... one would assume this would be the Sobeys location,.... but there's already WholeFoodsMarket at Tridel's HullmarkCentre, empty supermarket space (Loblaw's T&T bailed, Metro's Adonis rejected, Metro bailed???) at Bazis' EmeraldPark, and Longos going into renovated RioCan's SheppardCentre in 1.5 years, and those 3 are just at Yonge & Sheppard! Yonge & Empress/ParkHomes has Loblaws at EmpressWalk,... this site is smack in the middle with no direct subway connection,... which all the other mentioned supermarket has.

Anyways, the area doesn't need another "gwai-lo" supermarket,... where's the Chinese +T&T that was once signed up for EmeraldPark (until they figured out Bazis was full of crap),... a Korean Galleria supermarket would fit well here especially since the southern street is SpringGarden Avenue which has always been a KoreanTown area.

Anyways,.... this development proposal and the last minute developer amendments have been approved,... and as stated before - just because a developer gets approval, it doesn't mean they'll build it immediately, or even ever,...... and due to "changing priorities", ConservatoryGroup haven't proceeded any further with demolition or building permits - absolutely nothing with any city departments,.... they're just sitting on this project and letting it rot, much like the stairs of their sales office,... new signage and "Coming Soon" signage been there for 2 years already,... it makes the 1.5 year old LCBO "Coming Soon" sign at EmeraldPark look new!
IMG_3555.JPG


ConservatoryGroup has "changing priorities" and they're focusing on other projects,.... especially since last year when SilverCore got approval for NorthTown Plaza redevelopment which basically opens up the entire North Yonge Secondary Plan for high density development now! Locally, ConservatoryGroup is focusing on their Ruby project on Inez Court which could be marketed with likely subway connection at Cummer/Drewry when Yonge subway extension happens (in 30 years),... Whereas the only hope for indirect subway connection for any of the Pearl condos would be redevelopment of block to the south between SpringGarden and Greenfield along Yonge Street by a vert friendly developer,... but due to crossing of Greenfield and SpringGarden Ave and dealing with city utilities, its not likely to happen,... especially now that North York City Planning have given up on an underground PATH for NYCC long ago,....

Oh,... and no, I'm not going show any evidence for any of the above,... so don't bother asking. ;p
 

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Waterloo_Guy

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There is nothing in the SilverCore thread that indicates approval, and the Ruby thread has been dead since 2010.
 

lead82

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This project is dead. I wish the city would expropriate the la d and build a nice park along Yonge St. This area is a blight to the neighbourhood.
 

Edward Skira

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sunnyraytoronto

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Northtown Plaza? It was redeveloped by Tridel years ago. Are you talking about Newtonbrook Plaza?

EdwardSkira, yes, you're right. NorthTown Plaza (Dominion in middle of plaza with BurgerKing on Yonge) northeast of Yonge & Church/Churchill was developed by Tridel years ago.

Silvercore is redeveloping NewtonBrook Plaza at southeast corner of Yonge & Cummer/Drewry,.... City and Developer are in agreement with revised plan since last summer,.... OMB this fall on small technicalities and local ratepayer's group delay,.... city planning final report should be out in about 6 months (end of this year or early next year). This redevelopment has nice chunk of land for new park and roadway,.... but Doris extension from Finch Hydro Corridor to Steeles is still challenging,... Beecroft extension from Finch Hydro Corridor to Steeles will likely happen first (in about 2-3 years) as city has all land required except 1 or 2 house properties,...
 

Edward Skira

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Beecroft extension from Finch Hydro Corridor to Steeles will likely happen first (in about 2-3 years) as city has all land required except 1 or 2 house properties,...

What route exactly?
 

innsertnamehere

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you can see how it connects to Drewry in this report;

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2011/ny/bgrd/backgroundfile-37909.pdf

If you look closely on google maps you can see most of the vacant lots and space needed for the extension. I don't see any evidence online anywhere that the city is planning to build it soon, but they do appear to own most of the land. It would run up Greenview Avenue, cut through the TTC parking lot, around the hydro station, cut across Inez Court (possibly where the city still needs properties), by Drewry as shown in the PDF I linked, through the vacant land on the north side of Drewry to Lariviere Road, follow Lariviere Road to the Centrepoint Mall, and around the mall on the west side.
 

sunnyraytoronto

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you can see how it connects to Drewry in this report;

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2011/ny/bgrd/backgroundfile-37909.pdf

If you look closely on google maps you can see most of the vacant lots and space needed for the extension. I don't see any evidence online anywhere that the city is planning to build it soon, but they do appear to own most of the land. It would run up Greenview Avenue, cut through the TTC parking lot, around the hydro station, cut across Inez Court (possibly where the city still needs properties), by Drewry as shown in the PDF I linked, through the vacant land on the north side of Drewry to Lariviere Road, follow Lariviere Road to the Centrepoint Mall, and around the mall on the west side.


Innsertnamehere, that's pretty good.

And yes, I would concur with Lariviere Road becoming part of the new Beecroft Rd extension.

Here's a more recent property line map of the Beecroft Road extension from Finch Ave to Drewry; it'll get some properties on Inez Court from the ConservatoryGroup's Ruby development,... yeah, that's the development that ConservatoryGroup is now focusing on,.... which urbantoronto's thread died 6 years ago,... but last I heard, just because an urbantoronto thread dies, it doesn't mean the developer can't continue with that development proposal! ;p
BeecroftRoad_Extension_FinchHydroCorridorRoad (3).jpg


While Beecroft Road is basically a done deal now (still need 1 or 2 more properties and community consultation to finalize layout); the map also shows a proposed 1km east-west collector road through the Finch Hydro Corridor from Talbot Road to Kenneth Avenue,... this proposed roadway is interesting in that over the years many have suggested a much longer new collector roadway along the Finch Hydro Corridor running from basically one end of the city to the other - about 25-30km long,... so maybe this proposed little 1km collector roadway is the start of something much longer,... eventually! Along with a redefined roadway connection from the new Beecroft Road extension (east of FairChild Ave) to Yonge Street via what is now the driveway of (North York) Toronto Hydro offices and connects to the new roadway behind the "approved" Silvercore NewtonBrook plaza redevelopment,.... maybe in 6 months when that final report should be out, we'll get a clearer picture on some of these proposed roadway connections. ;p
 

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