Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[KhalilHeron]

I appreciate a lot of the community questions and responses but a good half of the questions were just filled with so much entitlement. For such a recently gentrified neighbourhood, that has seen so much change over the past 20 years, often at the expense of lower-income communities, a lot (not all) of Leslieville's residents seem to think that they are the centre of the universe and that the rest of the city should bend to their will because they don't want change in their neighbourhood, that they only live in because they pushed out the areas previous residents. I agree largely with many of their points, and am in no way trying to defend Metrolinx and their handling of these meetings here, but especially in comparison to say the meeting on the north segment a week or two ago, the people in this area really only care about themselves, and it shows in the way they engage with Metrolinx. I loved the comparison of downtown getting a buried subway, but Leslieville getting at grade, and how this was unjust because still has density...

 

[toronto647]

I appreciate a lot of the community questions and responses but a good half of the questions were just filled with so much entitlement. For such a recently gentrified neighbourhood, that has seen so much change over the past 20 years, often at the expense of lower-income communities, a lot (not all) of Leslieville's residents seem to think that they are the centre of the universe and that the rest of the city should bend to their will because they don't want change in their neighbourhood, that they only live in because they pushed out the areas previous residents. I agree largely with many of their points, and am in no way trying to defend Metrolinx and their handling of these meetings here, but especially in comparison to say the meeting on the north segment a week or two ago, the people in this area really only care about themselves, and it shows in the way they engage with Metrolinx. I loved the comparison of downtown getting a buried subway, but Leslieville getting at grade, and how this was unjust because still has density...

Shame on the leslieville community. NIMBYs. Lets get shovels in the ground and get this project going. Enough time has been wasted. BUILD THE LINE!

 

[syn]

Does Ford actually care whether it was tunnelled or in the rail corridor? This decision seems like it came from the engineers and not politicians. I'd expect the exchange between Ford and Metrolinx along the lines of:
Ford: "I need a transit project to promote as my own so that I have a legacy"
Metrolinx: "Well, now that we are trying to better integrate our transit network, we have a new relief line concept that we've been discussing that allows for better transfers with other lines, is longer, cheaper, and uses some of our existing land"
Ford: "Can you give me a pretty picture and let me name it"
Metrolinx: "Sure, as long as we get money and free reign to design what we think is best"

Who decided the EWLRT had to be buried?

 

[syn]

I appreciate a lot of the community questions and responses but a good half of the questions were just filled with so much entitlement. For such a recently gentrified neighbourhood, that has seen so much change over the past 20 years, often at the expense of lower-income communities, a lot (not all) of Leslieville's residents seem to think that they are the centre of the universe and that the rest of the city should bend to their will because they don't want change in their neighbourhood, that they only live in because they pushed out the areas previous residents. I agree largely with many of their points, and am in no way trying to defend Metrolinx and their handling of these meetings here, but especially in comparison to say the meeting on the north segment a week or two ago, the people in this area really only care about themselves, and it shows in the way they engage with Metrolinx. I loved the comparison of downtown getting a buried subway, but Leslieville getting at grade, and how this was unjust because still has density...

Of course they care.

Kind of like how people in Scarborough don't care how much the SSE costs as long as they get their subway and don't have to make a transfer.

Personally I have no problem with above ground sections, but it's clear to see why the community is upset.

The real problem isn't how they engaged with Metrolinx - it's that Metrolinx hasn't engaged with them throughout this entire process, other than to tell them what they'll do.

It doesn't surprise me they're having difficulty accepting this when other parts of the city are getting whatever they want, no matter the cost.

 

[tsm1072]

Who decided the EWLRT had to be buried?

No idea, but I'm talking about the Ontario Line not the EWLRT. They are separate projects, in separate communities, with different stakeholders and design constraints. We can discuss who buried it in that thread.

As far as community engagement goes, is this not what Metrolinx is doing? They have produced a design that they think best solves the problem withing budget and is the best option for all stakeholders involved. They likely already used information about the local community when generating this design, but I don't expect them to put up all of the resources they used. Now they are seeking feedback on the design from the broader community, these aren't dumb people, they know the community would rather it be buried than at grade, but they have reasons for the decisions they made. We may still see changes to the design to reduce impact during construction and improve astethics, some of those may come out of these meetings.

 

[44 North]

One more from the post. View attachment 314429

So I guess it's official that it's four mainline tracks. I thought it was to be five.

No idea, but I'm talking about the Ontario Line not the EWLRT. They are separate projects, in separate communities, with different stakeholders and design constraints. We can discuss who buried it in that thread.

As far as community engagement goes, is this not what Metrolinx is doing? They have produced a design that they think best solves the problem withing budget and is the best option for all stakeholders involved. They likely already used information about the local community when generating this design, but I don't expect them to put up all of the resources they used. Now they are seeking feedback on the design from the broader community, these aren't dumb people, they know the community would rather it be buried than at grade, but they have reasons for the decisions they made. We may still see changes to the design to reduce impact during construction and improve astethics, some of those may come out of these meetings.

Bringing up other projects is fairly relevant imo, particularly with respect to "funding envelopes". SSE and YNSE will tunnel deep under rivers with exceptionally deep stations, Crosstown West tunneled below a set-aside transportation corridor. This one apparently tunneling under rivers is a no go, as is deep stations, and we must use transportation corridors if they're available. It's a double standard. I could care less, but if I was a NIMBY I'd use Metrolinx's own ammo against them. And plus the design already changed significantly by moving things to one side, so the notion that what they concocted was "best" can't be true. That was best. Now this one's best? Second best? It's a moving target.

Also Metrolinx already had a raft of affordable relief lines they offered years ago. Surface subways, elevated viaducts, you name it. Not one used the surface of this rail corridor. They're the biggest stakeholder, perhaps there was a reason to exclude it. Looks to be reduced to four tracks. Again I could care less. If they want to do it and attempt to save money, so be it.

 

[generalcanada]

So I guess it's official that it's four mainline tracks. I thought it was to be five.

Go Expansion has always been 4 tracks planned going at least to scarborough

 

[TossYourJacket]

Who decided the EWLRT had to be buried?

I think we all know the answer to that one. I feel like Metrolinx would have a way easier time defending running this above-ground section in Leslieville if they hadn't been pretty obviously ordered to bury the EWLRT, because naturally they aren't going to come out and say "yeah we buried that because the premier made us do it", so instead they jump through bizarre hoops to explain why surface/elevated transit is actually good here but yet somehow also very bad on eglinton west (where it makes total sense to literally anyone who isn't the premier). We should just build above ground where it makes sense, no matter where it is in the city, except our stupid politicians keep shoving their noses into it.

 

[syn]

No idea, but I'm talking about the Ontario Line not the EWLRT. They are separate projects, in separate communities, with different stakeholders and design constraints. We can discuss who buried it in that thread.

I think it's quite pertinent to your question: "Does Ford actually care whether it was tunnelled or in the rail corridor?"

The answer seems obvious, given how he's interfered and added billions in spending to projects that benefit him politically.

If he didn't care then they simply could've went ahead with the much-further-along DRL plan.

 

[bjrkz]

Disappointing.

So much for 'community consultation'.

When the community backtracks on what’s being consulted it’s difficult to be productive. I think Metrolinx could be presenting some of their IBC planning for the underground options in a better fashion, but at the same time discussions have to advance for the best ways for the line to run above ground through the community - if underground isn’t an option because of the math, it never will be. Stop lamenting dropped options and move on to more productive discussions. Community-run planning studies aren’t valid proposals and “our community is being bisected by a Berlin wall” and going through “7 years of misery” aren’t reasonable arguments, especially when a 4-track rail corridor already runs between properties and the mentioned fact that underground station construction will be more destructive to the area.

 

[toronto647]

Out of curiosity interested to hear folks view point:

In the event Ford loses the next election in June 2022. Will the Ontario Line be cancelled by NDPs or Liberals or do you think they will proceed with the project since it will only be a few months away from financial close and early works project would have already started and financially closed?

My only thinking is if they were to cancel it then it would delay the DRL-South until early 2030s and DRL-North until 2040. It will cause major crowding on Yonge as Line 5 will be in operation next year. Also people north of Pape till Eglinton will be pissed at broken promises.

Or perhaps the Liberals or NDP cancel Yonge North and allocate the funding to DRL-South+North to be built at the same time?

Sorry for the random thoughts.

 

[KhalilHeron]

Out of curiosity interested to hear folks view point:

In the event Ford loses the next election in June 2022. Will the Ontario Line be cancelled by NDPs or Liberals or do you think they will proceed with the project since it will only be a few months away from financial close and early works project would have already started and financially closed?

My only thinking is if they were to cancel it then it would delay the DRL-South until early 2030s and DRL-North until 2040. It will cause major crowding on Yonge as Line 5 will be in operation next year. Also people north of Pape till Eglinton will be pissed at broken promises.

Or perhaps the Liberals or NDP cancel Yonge North and allocate the funding to DRL-South+North to be built at the same time?

Sorry for the random thoughts.

I don't think they'd cancel it cus at this point, the only people that would be happy from that are in Leslieville and they don't need to be persuaded to vote red or orange. I do think there's a chance the yonge north subway could be cancelled (and most certainly Sheppard east) and then they can come back in revised forms but not too sure. i am excited to see what direction they take with new proposals either during their campaigns or when in office if they win

 

[syn]

When the community backtracks on what’s being consulted it’s difficult to be productive. I think Metrolinx could be presenting some of their IBC planning for the underground options in a better fashion, but at the same time discussions have to advance for the best ways for the line to run above ground through the community - if underground isn’t an option because of the math, it never will be. Stop lamenting dropped options and move on to more productive discussions. Community-run planning studies aren’t valid proposals and “our community is being bisected by a Berlin wall” and going through “7 years of misery” aren’t reasonable arguments, especially when a 4-track rail corridor already runs between properties and the mentioned fact that underground station construction will be more destructive to the area.

I believe the community is upset that the government has backtracked on what was worked out and approved with them (the DRL). You could certainly argue they should be more cooperative at this point. Unfortunately this is what happens when the government forces plans down your throat with no consultation, while projects in other areas are built however the community would like with no regard to cost.

It's easy to dismiss these people because they live in Leslieville, but their community is no less important than it is to people in Scarborough, Eglinton West, etc.

 

[syn]

Out of curiosity interested to hear folks view point:

In the event Ford loses the next election in June 2022. Will the Ontario Line be cancelled by NDPs or Liberals or do you think they will proceed with the project since it will only be a few months away from financial close and early works project would have already started and financially closed?

My only thinking is if they were to cancel it then it would delay the DRL-South until early 2030s and DRL-North until 2040. It will cause major crowding on Yonge as Line 5 will be in operation next year. Also people north of Pape till Eglinton will be pissed at broken promises.

Or perhaps the Liberals or NDP cancel Yonge North and allocate the funding to DRL-South+North to be built at the same time?

Sorry for the random thoughts.

I could see them going back to a DRL type plan. Not sure it'll really change anything as the current government doesn't seem serious about getting this done as fast as possible.

 

[ViveleCanada]

Out of curiosity interested to hear folks view point:

In the event Ford loses the next election in June 2022. Will the Ontario Line be cancelled by NDPs or Liberals or do you think they will proceed with the project since it will only be a few months away from financial close and early works project would have already started and financially closed?

My only thinking is if they were to cancel it then it would delay the DRL-South until early 2030s and DRL-North until 2040. It will cause major crowding on Yonge as Line 5 will be in operation next year. Also people north of Pape till Eglinton will be pissed at broken promises.

Or perhaps the Liberals or NDP cancel Yonge North and allocate the funding to DRL-South+North to be built at the same time?

Sorry for the random thoughts.

I mean...I assumed that the DRL south project was too far along for there to be any major changes when Ford was elected and look where we are now. As far as I'm concerned, I feel like they will just rebrand it rather than make any significant changes (which I would welcome since I'm not a huge fan of the "Ontario line" branding). The Ontario line is a necessary prerequisite for the Yonge extension, which goes right into York Region. That's a place that can go either red or blue in elections and is also where Del Duca's riding is; so the extension is as politically significant as the TYSSE extension.

While I find Del Duca to be kind of egotistical like the Fords, I don't see him being bash enough to delay the Ontario line and risk upsetting a swing region (along with his own riding). I feel as though Ford got away with the changes since the OL went through an orange region (a really funny example of gerrymandering transit lines now that I think about it). For the NDP, they will probably be in the same position as the Liberals since its likely that whoever gets into power will have done so with votes from York. However, the OL goes right into NDP-friendly ridings so they might be more inclined to change the plans to an underground option.

Also neither Del Duca and Horwath are from Toronto, thankfully, so they probably would not be as inclined to micromanage Toronto like Ford.