Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[BMO]

I'll ask it again - why doesn't Ford just commit the money and get this done properly?



I think there are still improvements needed with a 17% reduction.

That said - why not just build the full DRL as already planned, including a northern extension?

The province is in control. They can do what they want...so why not that?

I guess you need to know an estimated cost of something before committing funding for it. At this stage the range in how much it could cost is too wide.

 

[Northern Light]

In respect of the questions about Bloor-Yonge; that is a separate project, and it has already received provincial approval to be submitted for Federal infrastructure funds.

That project appears to be moving ahead irrespective of the OL/DRL question.

 

[Northern Light]

Timing is more of the issue here.

If the Business case is to be believed, you get OL by 2027 addressing critical problems in our network at today's dollar + inflation

RL Phase 1 would open in 2029 and wouldn't relieve Eglinton-Yonge nor sufficiently relieve Bloor-Yonge or Union by intercepting passengers at Exhibition. Then you'd be paying RL Long in "tomorrow's" costs + Inflation while we have nothing in the West. You're also helping the King Streetcar sooner

DRL plan are good but too slow.

There's no reason the DRL couldn't be tendered as is; but also have a plan approved to proceed w/the northern extension on a continuous build basis; RL to Pape opens 2029, Cosburn 2031, Thorncliffe 2033, Don Mills/Eglinton 2035. (or whatever pace suits the budget)

 

[jje1000]

Notes compared to the REM rolling stock:

REM Alstom Metropolis rolling stock:

Length: 76.20 m (250’) at peak hours
Width: 2.94 m (9’8’’)
Height: 3.90 m (12’10’’) excluding the pantograph
Theoretical capacity: 600 passengers
Maximum capacity: 780 passengers
Passengers per direction per hour (pphpd): ~33,300 (From 100,000 trips on the main Rive-Sud–Bois-Franc segment during morning rush hour, 6 to 9 a.m.)

Automated: Yes

Rolling stock

Learn about the REM light rail cars. First departures starting in 2022!

rem.info

Proposed Ontario Line rolling stock:

Length: 100 m
Width: 3 m
Theoretical capacity: 730-850 (based on 2.44-2.85 passsenger/sq m)
Passengers per direction per hour (pphpd): 29,300-34,000 with 40 tph
Automated: Yes

(Pg 32 of Business report)

Could we see something similar to the Alstom Metropolis cars? Maybe a modified Bombardier Innovia Metro if they're gunning for Thunder Bay?

 

[syn]

The price difference I would assume. The full DRL would be much significantly costlier and take longer. OL (according to the Business Case) is much cheaper and delivers faster than the whole DRL...which doesn't include a western extension relieving Union

Why?

When the province took over, one of the big selling points was the ability to build transit faster and more efficiently due to financial wherewithal, economies of scale, etc. So why not produce the best option needed for this corridor? Why does the Eglinton West extension have to go entirely underground, but not this?

So far it doesn't seem the province is any better at planning and building transit than the city is. They're just cutting corners.

This line is certainly cheaper, but there's a heavy price being paid. I think the jury is still out on whether is can be done faster too.

 

[robmausser]

Spanish Solution?

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH SOLUTION!

 

[jje1000]

When the province took over, one of the big selling points was the ability to build transit faster and more efficiently due to financial wherewithal, economies of scale, etc. So why not produce the best option needed for this corridor? Why does the Eglinton West extension have to go entirely underground, but not this?

Again, no one knows what the Eglinton Line looks like at this point in Metrolinx's hands.

 

[syn]

Again, no one knows what the Eglinton Line looks like at this point in Metrolinx's hands.

I'm referring to the province's stated desire to have it entirely underground.

In any case, the question still stands. Why not build this properly to maximize capacity now that they have full control?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I'll ask it again - why doesn't Ford just commit the money and get this done properly?



I think there are still improvements needed with a 17% reduction.

That said - why not just build the full DRL as already planned, including a northern extension?

The province is in control. They can do what they want...so why not that?

Because it "not our plan"

 

[robmausser]

I'm referring to the province's stated desire to have it entirely underground.

In any case, the question still stands. Why not build this properly to maximize capacity now that they have full control?

The province doesnt want Eglinton West entirely underground, only the portion from Royal York to Martin Grove.

What Ford announced: A replacement for the city’s plan to extend the already under construction Eglinton Crosstown. The province’s plan would bury more of the extension and continue it west to Pearson International Airport, costing $4.7 billion. Under the province’s plan, the Eglinton West LRT will run underground between Royal York and Martin Grove Rds. and will be completed before 2031."

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ul-compares-with-torontos-existing-plans.html

So, the Eglinton West and Ontario Line plans are not in disagreement with methodologies. The province doesnt want the "entire thing underground", they want a portion of it, and a portion elevated, and a portion beside the road at grade.

Very similar to the Ontario Line.

 

[syn]

The province doesnt want Eglinton West entirely underground, only the portion from Royal York to Martin Grove.



https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ul-compares-with-torontos-existing-plans.html

So, the Eglinton West and Ontario Line plans are not in disagreement with methodologies. The province doesnt want the "entire thing underground", they want a portion of it, and a portion elevated, and a portion beside the road at grade.

Very similar to the Ontario Line.

Thanks for that. Ford had mentioned during the conference it would be built underground ("We will not be ripping up some of the busiest streets in Toronto to build a surface rail along Eglinton").

That said, Eglinton West and Downtown Toronto are very different animals. The DRL/OL needs maximum capacity...so why not just build it?

 

[Streety McCarface]

Notes compared to the REM rolling stock:

REM Alstom Metropolis rolling stock:

Automated: Yes

Rolling stock

Learn about the REM light rail cars. First departures starting in 2022!

rem.info

Proposed Ontario Line rolling stock:

(Pg 32 of Business report)

Could we see something similar to the Alstom Metropolis cars? Maybe a modified Bombardier Innovia Metro if they're gunning for Thunder Bay?

3 meter width...

Again, what's the point of building the Ontario line when it's the same width as the existing TTC rolling stock (minus a decimeter). Why change absolutely everything, make the line incompatible with the rest of the system, and make things more expensive? You can theoretically automate the existing rolling stock (that's what CBTC was all about), why change the technology? The tunnels are going to be no narrower than the existing tunnels we build for the subway. A 100m platform can support a 4-car train (we need 6 car trains but that's beside the point). Again, why did an entirely new technology win out?

 

[robmausser]

3 meter width...

Again, what's the point of building the Ontario line when it's the same width as the existing TTC rolling stock (minus a decimeter). Why change absolutely everything, make the line incompatible with the rest of the system, and make things more expensive? You can theoretically automate the existing rolling stock (that's what CBTC was all about), why change the technology? The tunnels are going to be no narrower than the existing tunnels we build for the subway. A 100m platform can support a 4-car train (we need 6 car trains but that's beside the point). Again, why did an entirely new technology win out?

1. The original TTC rail is not standard gauge which increases costs. Custom vs off the shelf.
2. While the original TTC subway system is being upgraded to CBTC the track setup, configuration and design of the system is very antiquated and a similar system would need to be built to give backwards compatibility. Again not off the shelf, custom.
3. The weight of the rocket trains makes grade changes, elevation more difficult and costly.
4. CBTC is not the same as a fully automated line.
5. The Montreal REM has a platform length of 80 metres and 4 car trains, so I can only imagine 100m would allow for 5 car trains just doing simple math in my head.
6. There really isnt an advantage to making the line compatible with the rest of the system. Its not a branch line, and there isnt space in any of the existing rail yards for the Ontario Line, as well as the Yonge Line extension and Scarborough Subway extension. So you would have to build a new train yard anyways.

Its funny that people are complaining that an off-the-shelf system the conservatives propose for the Ontario Line were completely OK with the liberals proposing an off-the-shelf system incompatible with the streetcar network for Transit City....

 

[W. K. Lis]

1. The original TTC rail is not standard gauge which increases costs. Custom vs off the shelf.
2. While the original TTC subway system is being upgraded to CBTC the track setup, configuration and design of the system is very antiquated and a similar system would need to be built to give backwards compatibility. Again not off the shelf, custom.
3. The weight of the rocket trains makes grade changes, elevation more difficult and costly.
4. CBTC is not the same as a fully automated line.
5. The Montreal REM has a platform length of 80 metres and 4 car trains, so I can only imagine 100m would allow for 5 car trains just doing simple math in my head.
6. There really isnt an advantage to making the line compatible with the rest of the system. Its not a branch line, and there isnt space in any of the existing rail yards for the Ontario Line, as well as the Yonge Line extension and Scarborough Subway extension. So you would have to build a new train yard anyways.

Its funny that people are complaining that an off-the-shelf system the conservatives propose for the Ontario Line were completely OK with the liberals proposing an off-the-shelf system incompatible with the streetcar network for Transit City....

For the umpteenth time, track gauge has zero influence to cost.

 

[syn]

1. The original TTC rail is not standard gauge which increases costs. Custom vs off the shelf.
2. While the original TTC subway system is being upgraded to CBTC the track setup, configuration and design of the system is very antiquated and a similar system would need to be built to give backwards compatibility. Again not off the shelf, custom.
3. The weight of the rocket trains makes grade changes, elevation more difficult and costly.
4. CBTC is not the same as a fully automated line.
5. The Montreal REM has a platform length of 80 metres and 4 car trains, so I can only imagine 100m would allow for 5 car trains just doing simple math in my head.
6. There really isnt an advantage to making the line compatible with the rest of the system. Its not a branch line, and there isnt space in any of the existing rail yards for the Ontario Line, as well as the Yonge Line extension and Scarborough Subway extension. So you would have to build a new train yard anyways.

Its funny that people are complaining that an off-the-shelf system the conservatives propose for the Ontario Line were completely OK with the liberals proposing an off-the-shelf system incompatible with the streetcar network for Transit City....

The off-the-shelf system being proposed is significantly lower capacity than what would be possible with standard subway cars. That's where the problem lies.

That doesn't cut it for a line that will act as one of the backbones of the entire system.

The advantage of building another full subway is higher capacity for extensions too.