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Ontario Line (was Relief Line South, in Design) | ?m | ?s

nfitz

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I for one would hope that the city would have grander ambitions than slowly reducing the amount of parking... for years. I couldn't name a more "Toronto" approach to this problem 😅
Why do you think they don't?

 

W. K. Lis

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I don't understand why they won't expand the streetcar network to cover more of the City.
Also we have non-transit using powers-that-be (councillors, bureaucrats, NIMBYs) who refuse to give the TTC the needed budget to improve streetcar network operations. Not just the ribbon-cutting projects, but the everyday needed improvements to operate much, much better. The TTC is still forced to stop at each streetcar intersection or track switch, unlike in the rest of world where trams or streetcars go through at speed.

The TTC legacy streetcar network still has single-point track switches instead of the better (and more expensive, which is why the powers-that-be refuse it) double-point switches.

The Ontario Line likely will use double-point switches, ditto for the Line 5 and Line 6 track switches. Waiting for the legacy streetcar network to catch up.
 
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denfromoakvillemilton

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I don't understand why they won't expand the streetcar network to cover more of the City.
Parliament, Dufferin, Ossington, Coxwell all need north south transit. You can even bring the 505 back to St Clair and extend it Kingston Rd or Main Street.

Ontario Line Serves a different purpose however.
 

Rainforest

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I don't understand why they won't expand the streetcar network to cover more of the City.

For the majority of riders, merely replacing mixed-traffic bus with mixed-traffic streetcar brings no benefit.

Some people are nostalgic / emotional about the streetcars, they take a streetcar over a bus any day. Those people are present on transit blogs in greater numbers than in real life.

For the average rider, who just wants to get from A to B ... streetcars are a bit more comfy because the ride is smooth, but buses are a bit faster because they can change lanes and get around obstacles. At the end, both suffer from congested streets and irregular headways. The cost of replacing buses with mixed-traffic streetcars is hardly justifiable, generally speaking.

The main path forward is LRT / dedicated lanes (in addition to subways and mainline trains). But the downtown streets are rarely wide enough for that.

There are special cases where extending mixed-traffic streetcars makes sense. For example, on Dundas north of Bloor, that extension can both improve the access and provide more terminal space, so the trams don't bunch up trying to enter the terminal. And, the existing downtown streetcar lines are mostly in the right place. TTC closed the streetcar routes that performed poorly in the past. Routes that survived carry large volumes of riders, it would be hard to serve those volumes with buses because buses are smaller. The shift to reduced general traffic on King gave the streetcars more room and certainly improved that route.

But adding / restoring streetcars everywhere "just because we can" isn't a good idea. Say, quite a few posters dream of extending the Bathurst streetcar from Bloor up to St Clair, but that would mess up the #7 Bathurst bus more than it would benefit the streetcar.
 

denfromoakvillemilton

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For the majority of riders, merely replacing mixed-traffic bus with mixed-traffic streetcar brings no benefit.

Some people are nostalgic / emotional about the streetcars, they take a streetcar over a bus any day. Those people are present on transit blogs in greater numbers than in real life.

For the average rider, who just wants to get from A to B ... streetcars are a bit more comfy because the ride is smooth, but buses are a bit faster because they can change lanes and get around obstacles. At the end, both suffer from congested streets and irregular headways. The cost of replacing buses with mixed-traffic streetcars is hardly justifiable, generally speaking.

The main path forward is LRT / dedicated lanes (in addition to subways and mainline trains). But the downtown streets are rarely wide enough for that.

There are special cases where extending mixed-traffic streetcars makes sense. For example, on Dundas north of Bloor, that extension can both improve the access and provide more terminal space, so the trams don't bunch up trying to enter the terminal. And, the existing downtown streetcar lines are mostly in the right place. TTC closed the streetcar routes that performed poorly in the past. Routes that survived carry large volumes of riders, it would be hard to serve those volumes with buses because buses are smaller. The shift to reduced general traffic on King gave the streetcars more room and certainly improved that route.

But adding / restoring streetcars everywhere "just because we can" isn't a good idea. Say, quite a few posters dream of extending the Bathurst streetcar from Bloor up to St Clair, but that would mess up the #7 Bathurst bus more than it would benefit the streetcar.
I majorly agree with this, but I would have no issue with the 511 going to St. Clair. Would provide some decent relief for the subway. Parliament would also be a good return, its a bit of a walk from Yonge and from the Ontario Line. That should be considered a phase two of the bayfront LRT. Dufferin would be justifiable based on ridership, but like you said, it would mess up ridership patterns.
 

Bureaucromancer

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The issue with 511 to St. Clair is that there is far more demand to Bloor than Spadina from north of St. Clair. The only way this would work for riders would be as supplement to the existing bus, in which case it's just pure cost. There are far better places to add service hours than duplicating pretty decent bus routes.
 

Allandale25

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Via the OLP Toronto Danforth candidate (and former City Councillor) Mary Fragedakis' newsletter.

Public transit is the backbone of livable cities. Better transit means better commutes, a stronger economy, and lower emissions. I have advocated for transit for many years, including as a member of the TTC Board. But we also know that the Ontario Line – a massive project that has never been subject to adequate public consultation—has the potential to cause real harm to our community. Many of you have asked me how the Ontario Line will impact your homes, businesses, and green spaces. The truth is that even as work presses ahead, Metrolinx is playing its cards close to its chest. That’s not good enough. Big transit projects like the Ontario Line need open and accountable communication.

I’m working hard to push Metrolinx to respond to our concerns, including meeting twice with Metrolinx staff in just the last few weeks. You can read on below for updates for different parts of our community. I encourage you to also take a look at my attached letter to Metrolinx as an example of the tough, detail-oriented work required to make sure that this project is built in the right way.

Ontario Line Community Updates:

Riverside and Leslieville

On June 24, 2021, I attended a Metrolinx public consultation at which Metrolinx announced the creation of additional park space. That’s a headline. They are talking about the parks being a bit wider with a high retaining wall for the track bed plus high fencing for noise. So, good news – more green space. Bad news – it has a backdrop of concrete and fencing. I asked the hosts if this met the public realm list of items that the province gave the Davenport community which is approximately $70 million for public realm and new parks. Our community deserves the same consideration and I will continue to work with Metrolinx so that we get our fair share.

Broadview near Lower Don Bridge

On July 12, 2021, I followed up with the Ontario Line Program Sponsor (the Metrolinx official responsible for the project) with respect to the Ontario Line Draft Lower Bridge and Don Yard Early Works Report. I outlined eleven community concerns. Please see attached letter. I will share with you the response from Metrolinx expected shortly.

Lower Don Valley

On July 21, 2021, I met with Metrolinx staff and a fellow Toronto-Danforth resident for a site visit in the Lower Don Valley to discuss their GO Expansion plans on the Don Branch Subdivision which is a secondary freight/passenger corridor that is currently not in use. We discussed the proposed facility’s impact on the natural environment and on the residents that live west of Broadview Avenue north of Danforth Avenue. Again, I will share with you the Metrolinx response.

Pape and Danforth

On August 3, 2021, I met with Metrolinx staff to discuss their plans in the Pape and Danforth Avenue area. As the Executive Director of GreekTown on the Danforth BIA, an affected neighbour, and concerned citizen, I asked for more detailed information on property impacts, construction impacts on neighbouring businesses and residents, and a timeline for updating the community. I will post that response publicly.

I continue to work the transit file in Toronto-Danforth and will provide updates as they become available. Please don’t hesitate to reach out to discuss this project or anything else.

Attached letter to Metrolinx:

July 12, 2021
SENT VIA EMAIL
Malcolm MacKay
Program Sponsor – Ontario Line
Metrolinx
130 Adelaide St. W., Ste. 1500
Toronto, ON M5H 3P5

Dear Mr. MacKay,

RE: Ontario Line Draft Lower Don Bridge and Don Yard Early Works Report (Draft Report)

Recently, I had the opportunity to meet with residents of the community who are, or will soon be, affected by the construction of the Ontario Line. As such, I am writing to you regarding a number of questions that have surfaced in the community with respect to the Draft Report prepared by AECOM Canada Ltd.:

1. Page xii of the Draft Report notes the closing of the Lower Don Trail south of Cherry Street; however, the report does not include a timeline or state the expected duration of the closure. Can you please advise of the expected duration of the closure?

2. There appears to be overlap in an area between the Ontario Line early works and the Port Lands Lower Don scheme. How will you collaborate to ensure that disruption between the two is minimized, and that piggybacking on each other’s
land and time will ensure that no work is undone nor has to be done again?

3. Appendix C of the Draft Report makes reference to consultations that took place with Indigenous Chiefs and Communities. What type of consultation was done with these groups? Can you please share their responses and concerns? Are
there any sites that previously formed part of the Canadian Indian residential school system that fall within the project area?

4. In light of the current issues relating to the number of hydro outages that occur in the area, how will Metrolinx ensure continuity of power to businesses, homes and schools while the work is done?

5. Already, utility work and survey work has decimated Eastern Avenue traffic flow. How will you minimize this once the project begins in earnest?

6. The report speaks to the acquisition of 150 properties. Can you please provide us with a list of those properties?

7. The Draft Report makes reference to road and lane closures on Cherry Street and the Don Valley Parkway. How does Metrolinx expect the TTC and GO Transit to adjust services to make them more resilient? What route diversions
(TTC 72 bus and the 121 bus) do you expect to put in place, and for how long?

8. The Don River is becoming cleaner with more wildlife, fish, etc. Given that you’re working on contaminated land, how will you ensure that the Don, and storm drains which lead to the Don and/or Lake Ontario, will not be contaminated?

9. How will Metrolinx remove the contaminated soil without polluting the Lower Don River? How will it be taken away, and where will it be treated / disposed of?

10.What are the expected hours of construction? What steps will Metrolinx take to mitigate any noise issues in the neighbourhoods both east and west of the DVP arising out of the construction?

11.Why has a fulsome public consultation not been completed prior to the commencement of any work?

In keeping with the true spirit of openness and accessibility, I look forward to your full, detailed and prompt responses to these questions so as to address the concerns that have been raised by members of the community.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely,
Mary Fragedakis
 

afransen

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cost and city counclours who do't undesatnd how public transit actually works but think they do because there were elected to city council
Streetcars are expensive and only really justified to replace buses when volumes exceed their capacity?
 

Rainforest

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I majorly agree with this, but I would have no issue with the 511 going to St. Clair. Would provide some decent relief for the subway. Parliament would also be a good return, its a bit of a walk from Yonge and from the Ontario Line. That should be considered a phase two of the bayfront LRT. Dufferin would be justifiable based on ridership, but like you said, it would mess up ridership patterns.

Parliament is an interesting option, maybe another case where mixed-traffic streetcar makes sense. Could reach a decent ridership, and provide a bit of relief for Yonge. Since the route will be short, speed is not very critical.

Although, I would evaluate Parliament vs Sherbourne vs Jarvis first; which of them will have the highest ridership. Sherbourne has the most direct connection to subway.

Re. 511 to St Clair, I will hold to my opinion :) . Many riders of the #7 Bathurst bus want to connect to the Bloor subway. Furthermore, Line 2's Bathurst Stn is blessed with an uncommonly spacious transit terminal, that has room for the streetcars, buses, and the riders. It would be a pity to stop using it. Operating both the bus to Bloor and the streetcar to St Clair is possible, but that's the most congested section of Bathurst. Buses and streetcars might be delaying each other if they both operate there.
 

W. K. Lis

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Perhaps the 509 could continue to Ontario Place and head north in a tunnel to Exhibition.
Will need pumps to keep rainwater from flooding in.
Dk1L-78XsAAC_in
From link.

Might be better to raise the surface of Exhibition Place a little to keep the "tunnel" above the possible flood waters.
 

W. K. Lis

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Parliament is an interesting option, maybe another case where mixed-traffic streetcar makes sense. Could reach a decent ridership, and provide a bit of relief for Yonge. Since the route will be short, speed is not very critical.

Although, I would evaluate Parliament vs Sherbourne vs Jarvis first; which of them will have the highest ridership. Sherbourne has the most direct connection to subway.

Re. 511 to St Clair, I will hold to my opinion :) . Many riders of the #7 Bathurst bus want to connect to the Bloor subway. Furthermore, Line 2's Bathurst Stn is blessed with an uncommonly spacious transit terminal, that has room for the streetcars, buses, and the riders. It would be a pity to stop using it. Operating both the bus to Bloor and the streetcar to St Clair is possible, but that's the most congested section of Bathurst. Buses and streetcars might be delaying each other if they both operate there.
If they're "upgrading" Parliament & Bloor, maybe they should incorporate streetcar (right-of-way?) tracks as well.

 

EddyMCD

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Parliament is an interesting option, maybe another case where mixed-traffic streetcar makes sense. Could reach a decent ridership, and provide a bit of relief for Yonge. Since the route will be short, speed is not very critical.

Although, I would evaluate Parliament vs Sherbourne vs Jarvis first; which of them will have the highest ridership. Sherbourne has the most direct connection to subway.

Re. 511 to St Clair, I will hold to my opinion :) . Many riders of the #7 Bathurst bus want to connect to the Bloor subway. Furthermore, Line 2's Bathurst Stn is blessed with an uncommonly spacious transit terminal, that has room for the streetcars, buses, and the riders. It would be a pity to stop using it. Operating both the bus to Bloor and the streetcar to St Clair is possible, but that's the most congested section of Bathurst. Buses and streetcars might be delaying each other if they both operate there.
Sherbourne is only one lane in each direction, it would be very difficult to add a streetcar there. Plus it has some really high volume bike lanes already. I think Parliament would work best for a N/S route. it has the space, a large growing population, and I really like the idea of giving Regent Park and Corktown a few more transit options. A streetcar on Parliament could also be easily incorporated with the East Bayfront LRT system.

Jarvis has the room but it's too close to Yonge and also used mainly as a feeder to/from the Gardiner.
 

DirectionNorth

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Sherbourne is only one lane in each direction, it would be very difficult to add a streetcar there. Plus it has some really high volume bike lanes already. I think Parliament would work best for a N/S route. it has the space, a large growing population, and I really like the idea of giving Regent Park and Corktown a few more transit options. A streetcar on Parliament could also be easily incorporated with the East Bayfront LRT system.

Jarvis has the room but it's too close to Yonge and also used mainly as a feeder to/from the Gardiner.
Also, Parliament already has substantial amounts of non-revenue track. You'd only need to install it south of King and north of Carlton.
 

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