Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

It's either expropriate land for a widening of the roadway for a on-street platform or expropriate land for a loop.

One problem. Side platforms would require duplication of stairs, escalators, and elevators. Our legacy streetcars don't have doors on both sides.

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However, if crossover tracks were added to both sides, then a center platform could be used... if they can decide who gets the right-of-way to cross the tracks.
 
However, if crossover tracks were added to both sides, then a center platform could be used... if they can decide who gets the right-of-way to cross the tracks.
Why? Just walk across the tracks, like is done now in underground streetcar platforms with side platforms.
 
Before Line 2 (Bloor-Danforth) we had the HARBORD streetcar that basically followed our current 505 DUNDAS east of Bay Street. It ran to Broadview and up to Gerrard before turning east on Gerrard to Carlaw, Riverdale, and Pape up to a loop north of Danforth Avenue.

harbord15.gif

With the opening of Line 2, the DUNDAS and HARBORD basically merged. However, instead of going to the Pape Station, the 505 DUNDAS was routed to the Broadview Station.
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With a Relief Line on the horizon, maybe the east terminal of the 505 DUNDAS should be rerouted to the Relief Line. Likely, it would not terminate at Pape Station, but at "Gerrard" Station. I think there are two possible routes.

One, mostly duplicating the old HARBORD route. Instead of continuing up Broadview, it could turn east on Gerrard to a loop at the Relief Line at Carlaw/Pape.

Two, extend the 505 DUNDAS east on Dundas Street East and have a on-street loop around Carlaw, Gerrard, Pape, and back on Dundas.

Dundas East.jpg
 

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I've been suggesting something like that. Though I wouldn't run it along Gerrard at all - that piece between Carlaw and Pape is already the most congested piece of Lower Gerrard east of Parliament.

I'd think you want some kind of underground loop in the station.
 
Why? Just walk across the tracks, like is done now in underground streetcar platforms with side platforms.

What he means is a ciss-cross for the streetcar tracks to get the Exit door onto the centre platform side of the streetcar.

Like what is proposed for the Massey Bridge project bus lanes in Vancouver:
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http://engage.gov.bc.ca/masseytunnel/files/2016/01/PDR-Concept-Dec-2015.pdf

Similarly, here's a pic of the bus criss-cross on the Harbour Freeway Silver Line in Los Angeles.

harbor_freeway9.jpg
 
I'm curious: what would be the benefit of running the 505 to Gerrard station rather than Broadview? Subway riders already have a good connection. RER transfers to the 505 might be made easier, but would many riders make that transfer? For local travel, the transfer from the 506 is not difficult.

Running 505 further east on Dundas would mean tearing out a busy bike lane.
 
I'm curious: what would be the benefit of running the 505 to Gerrard station rather than Broadview? Subway riders already have a good connection. RER transfers to the 505 might be made easier, but would many riders make that transfer? For local travel, the transfer from the 506 is not difficult.
The 505 service on Broadview isn't really necessary, there's plenty of capacity on 504 north of Dundas, and those from there that need the 505 can change at Broadview/Dundas. This provides a shorter connection to the subway, a connection to GO, and direct service into the Dundas/Carlaw area that has undergone much development.

It also improves connectivity to Regent Park, and also to Ryerson, and Dundas station itself - the station that has the most arrivals at AM peak of the Yonge line.
 
Before Line 2 (Bloor-Danforth) we had the HARBORD streetcar that basically followed our current 505 DUNDAS east of Bay Street. It ran to Broadview and up to Gerrard before turning east on Gerrard to Carlaw, Riverdale, and Pape up to a loop north of Danforth Avenue.


With the opening of Line 2, the DUNDAS and HARBORD basically merged. However, instead of going to the Pape Station, the 505 DUNDAS was routed to the Broadview Station.


With a Relief Line on the horizon, maybe the east terminal of the 505 DUNDAS should be rerouted to the Relief Line. Likely, it would not terminate at Pape Station, but at "Gerrard" Station. I think there are two possible routes.

One, mostly duplicating the old HARBORD route. Instead of continuing up Broadview, it could turn east on Gerrard to a loop at the Relief Line at Carlaw/Pape.

Two, extend the 505 DUNDAS east on Dundas Street East and have a on-street loop around Carlaw, Gerrard, Pape, and back on Dundas.

I'd be on board with this, and sounds pretty good. Not so much for the idea to have the 505 do a jog up to Gerrard, but to extend the 505 along Dundas to a loop at Carlaw. It might be a tight squeeze along Dundas, and the underside of the rail bridge might need expanding if we want to keep bike lanes. But it'd be worth it IMO. I don't really like the idea of the 505 going along Gerrard though. Streetcar service on Gerrard is a bit of a nightmare near both Broadview and around Carlaw. Closer to Broadview many times the streetcar purposefully crawls forward if there's a cyclist in front of it, considering the narrow space between parked cars and the streetcar can easily result in the sideswiping of a cyclist.

But even with a DRL, and waterfront transit, I still think the city needs to LRTize the 505, 506, and 504. This might seem a bit excessive/costly (particularly to the anti-downtown crowd), but considering the demand and current ridership it's obviously needed. Designated lanes in the outer areas, trenched and/or cut-cover inside downtown, then underground for 1-2km through the core.
 
I hope that Option B1 (Pape to City Hall via Queen/Richmond) is only a Phase One.

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Phase Two should continue the Relief Line north of Danforth to Eglinton and eventually Sheppard.

My proposal to extend the 505 DUNDAS to the "Gerrard" station would not work if the Relief Line only gets to Danforth. A one station ride is not beneficial to the 505. Better to keep the 505 DUNDAS running up to the Broadview station.

However, should the Relief Line continue on north with a Phase Two (Three, etc.) , it would benefit riders from the north.

The question then becomes, do we reroute the 505 DUNDAS with Phase One, or wait until Phase Two? Might depend upon how quickly Phase Two follows Phase One?
 
I've been suggesting something like that. Though I wouldn't run it along Gerrard at all - that piece between Carlaw and Pape is already the most congested piece of Lower Gerrard east of Parliament.

I'd think you want some kind of underground loop in the station.

Pape Gerrard parking.jpg


Hmm. With all those parking lots in the area, there just might be enough room to replace one of them with an underground loop. Having the streetcars go up Pape Avenue to loop under the Gerrard Square parking lot might be one. Another could be the parking lot next to the LCBO on Gerrard Street East itself.
 

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Here are my thoughts re: streetcars and the relief line (fully built to Dundas West):

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  • The 514 can be combined with the 509, as well as augmented by the East Bayfront, extension to Cherry Street Loop, and a gap fill between Exhibition Loop and Dufferin Gate to create a circular King/Waterfront Loop, through Union.
  • Sunnyside (King/Queen/Roncesvalles) becomes the terminus for the 501 in the west.
  • The 506 remains unaltered, and goes through relief line stations at High Park Blvd/Howard Park Ave and Gerrard/Pape.
  • the 505 terminates at Gerrard/Pape as previously suggested.
  • 504 service along Broadview becomes its own route, and is extended along with Broadview Ave itself into the Portlands, going through the relief line station at Broadview/Queen.
  • The 502/503 is rerouted, going south from Queen/Leslie to Commissioners in the Portlands
  • The 501 east of the Don becomes a separate route, which continues from Neville Park loop through Sumach relief line station, south on Cherry to the Portlands.
  • the 510 and 511 go through relief line stations at Queen and Spadina, Bathurst.
Can't help but think, though, with an altered streetcar network, if other new/diverted routes are available on other streets.
 
505 on Dundas east of Broadview to Carlaw and north from there? That would require widening of Dundas east of Broadview even for shared lanes and to go under two fairly low single lane Lake Shore East bridges.
 

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