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TheTigerMaster

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For the love of all that is good, I hope so. The Crosstown and Line 2 are design travesties. A so-called “world class city” ( I hate that phrase) deserves better than this mediocrity.
 

Amare

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It was mentioned when Projet Montreal held a press conference to announce their proposal.:
The REM is a done deal. It's a matter of days (not weeks) before the construction and operation contracts are awarded. Construction is expected to start by the end of the year.
How in the planet did Montreal get such a complex project into contracts being awarded so soon while it takes Metrolinx ions to get a simple light-rail line to the same point. I wont even mention the TTC here since we all know it takes them forever to do anything.
 

steveintoronto

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Not mentioned in all the linked articles on the Pink Line and Barcelona's soil v. Montreal's volcanic rock is the massive difference in not only tunneling ease, but also the complications.

I'm getting deja-vu all over again:
[...]
1. Introduction
During the excavation of the Barcelona subway L10 line through the
soft sediments of the Llobregat delta (
Fig. 1 ), the tunnel boring machine
collided with a layer of hard boulders, up to 1 m in size. The EPB-type
tunnel boring machine (
Maidl et al., 1996
) used was designed to exca-
vate soft grounds and was not able to cross this layer, which caused its
damage and stoppage. The engineering tasks to repair and restart the
machine lasted for 13 months causing an important delay and over-
cost of the tunnel construction.
[...]
https://deca.upc.edu/en/people/josepm.salvany/files/adjunts/filba-et-al-2016

As it stands, the Pink Line is a pie in the sky dream. How's that elevator to the Moon coming along there? Zontar ran on building it, and all the Moogs voted for it, so sure, we can build it.

We still have no idea of how REM is going to turn out. There are very serious questions...
 

Hopkins123

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CDPQ Infra acquired the rail viaduct between the Pointe-St-Charles yards and Central Station from the CN as part of their REM project. Projet Montreal is hopeful that a similar deal could be struck with CP to acquirer the passenger-only Westmount sub between Lucien Lallier station and Lachine.

The REM is a done deal. It's a matter of days (not weeks) before the construction and operation contracts are awarded. Construction is expected to start by the end of the year.

Is it wrong that even in spite of what has been a relatively great decade of transit expansion in Toronto, for me to look at Montreal with a bit of envy right now?

I thought REM on it's own was amazing; now coupled with Line Pink and the Anjou and Bois Franc extensions, wow! I only question where the money to build all this is coming from.
 

steveintoronto

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Thank you for the links! And I never realized there was a separate passenger-only sub from Lachine to Lucien L'Allier, I would see the freight trains pass by at Dorval AMT station and assumed they used the whole length of it, or at least most of it. If they could buy that section from CP, that would be incredible, since there are way more people (and jobs) above the St. Jacques bluffs. Much more useful than putting light rail in the Turcot corridor.
I suspect you'll find that others have their eye on that for real trains, not fairy ones.

Meantime:
Pink line promises?
When it came to discussing contributing cash to Plante's Pink line, Couillard and Joly were less specific.

Throughout her campaign, Plante touted the new Metro line, telling voters there is a window of opportunity to draw on large federal and provincial infrastructure funds to help pay for it.

But much of those funds has already been earmarked for other public transit infrastructure projects, and the province has said its priority is extending the existing Metro Blue line.

Both levels of government have committed large amounts of cash to the Caisse de Depot et Placement's ambitious LRT project.

Is there any money left for a Pink line?

Not saying yes, not saying no
"We have many projects on the go right now, and we'll discuss them all with Madame Plante," Couillard said.

He refused to commit to the Pink line but said that he and Plante share a commitment to sustainable mobility and that he looked forward to meeting with her soon.

"We're ready to study all projects with her," Joly said in Ottawa, noting in the same breathe that the federal government had already invested heavily in the LRT project.

Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, Plante will have to show she has the ability to cajole money out of other levels of government.

It's something Denis Coderre had some success at during his time as mayor, and it will be a major challenge for Plante if she wants to fulfil her biggest campaign promise.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...o-cash-for-metro-pink-line-just-yet-1.4389776

Reality can be so troubling at times....
 
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steveintoronto

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How in the planet did Montreal get such a complex project into contracts being awarded so soon while it takes Metrolinx ions to get a simple light-rail line to the same point. I wont even mention the TTC here since we all know it takes them forever to do anything.
I don't think you really want to know. It wasn't through honest dealing...

I think everyone had best take a deep breath and watch this fall apart before throwing yourselves to worship at soiled feet...
 
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TheTigerMaster

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Can be summed up in three words: Bombardier, Liberals, Quebec.

Oh yea, I get that. I was just wondering if there’s any specific allegations of corruption

In any case, there’s a Montreal transit blog (basically MTL’s Steve Munro) that has posted a series of articles about the questionable nature of the REM proposal. As happy as I am to see this project progressing so randomly, the blog postings do bring up seemingly valid and potentially fatal concerns with regards to the viability of the project. I’m concerned REM was rammed through without proper due diligence. Will this end up being an expensive mistake?

I don’t really know a lot about MTL transit, so I’m not in a position to vailidate the concerns about the REM.

http://www.cat-bus.com/category/rem/
 

44 North

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Toronto will be using single bore tunnels on the Scarborough Subway, remember. Wouldn't be surprised to see it on the DRL either, to minimize cut and cover construction.

But then why haven't we seen that in the RL reports? It's all twin bore. The entire Carlaw-Pape issue could've been avoided from the start, seeing that a single bore wouldn't have encroached on any properties' along Pape like the twin bore did. The new sub-alignment we have now is obviously preferable. But instead of adding 6mths and a supposed $150M it should've been considered from day 1. This is one reason I'm hopeful of Montreal's grand subway plans - they actually seem to be more thought out. I still have yet to see how a Line 2/yard access will be accomplished with the present RL plans.

Is it wrong that even in spite of what has been a relatively great decade of transit expansion in Toronto, for me to look at Montreal with a bit of envy right now?

I thought REM on it's own was amazing; now coupled with Line Pink and the Anjou and Bois Franc extensions, wow! I only question where the money to build all this is coming from.

I actually thought REM was dead, considering the comments I heard when it came out. That's it's now been made a real priority - compounded with this new Pink Line - makes me envious too.
 

steveintoronto

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Is this just conjecture, or are you speaking from some amount of knowledge?
Neither conjecture or proven knowledge. As others have hinted at, 'supposition' until proven. Let's flip this over: (and as much as I'm a cynic, this is the view of others much closer to the epicentre) "Is there any major infrastructure project in Montreal that *isn't* corrupt in some way or other?"

Let's start with the 'easy' stuff, and I get irked when people believe the fantasies of mayor-elect Plante and the Pink Line (and I love the lady, but she's a flake on this):

CTV Montreal
Published Friday, January 20, 2017 5:07PM EST
Last Updated Friday, January 20, 2017 10:37PM EST

Quebec's Environmental Review Board (BAPE) is not approving the Caisse de Depot's plan to build a light rail transit system in Montreal.

In a report released Friday afternoon the BAPE raises multiple questions about the $5.9 billion project.

The board says the Caisse has failed to examine the environmental impact of the line, doesn't explain where the funding is coming from, and does not explain the impact it would have on existing public transit systems.

In particular, the board points out documentation on natural habitats is missing, which means necessary studies have not been done.

The board also wants to know exactly how the project is being financed.

When the Caisse proposed the project it said it was willing to put forward $3 billion if the provincial and federal government provided the rest of the necessary funding. But it's never been clear who would collect profits or pay for shortfalls of the train line.

Documentation on the REM also fails to indicate how the project would get people to switch to public transit, or how much tickets would cost.

Several critics have pointed out that estimates for how many people would use the REM don't indicate it will have a significant increase in the number of people using public transit.

Later examinations showed the REM line would take over the rail line currently used by the Montreal-Deux Montagnes train line, and a portion of the Mascouche railway.

VIA's plan for high-speed rail in Montreal would also be thwarted by the REM.

More than 30 homes would also have to be expropriated.

Government insists REM will proceed

Regardless of the environmental concerns, Premier Philippe Couillard said the light rail project will proceed.

Couillard has not read the report but said the Environmental Review Board had no power to stop the project, no matter what questions were raised.

He did say it was possible there would be adjustments to the proposed rail line.

That was a viewpoint echoed by Quebec's Transport Minister Laurent Lessard, who also had not looked at the full report.

"Understand I have not had the time to look at his yet, but this is a project that will proceed," said Lessard.

The Conseil du Patronat echoed the Transportation Minister, saying the project was too important to the economy to allow it to be stopped.

Jean-Claude Gobé, leader of the opposition in Laval, had the same sentiments.

A spokesperson for Environment Minister David Heurtel said he won't be commenting until he has more time to study the report.

Meanwhile Parti Quebecois Transportation critic Alain Therrien is denouncing what he calls the government's lack of transparency.
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/couillar...spite-negative-environmental-review-1.3250340

And consider this:
MONTREAL, Nov. 3, 2017 / CNW Telbec / - The passing of the Act respecting the Réseau électrique métropolitain (PL 137) on September 27th was without any real public consultation. The Central Council of Metropolitan Montreal-CSN (CCMM-CSN) denounces the adoption of this law. Moreover, on March 22, the CCMM-CSN asked for a parliamentary commission, in order to see more clearly before going further in the development of the project, which has significant environmental, economic and environmental impacts. as well as public transit in the greater metropolitan area.


We would like to point out that the CCMM-CSN wishes to improve public transport in a sustainable development perspective by offering a diversity of transport infrastructures adapted to the different neighborhoods. We reiterate that the government is applying a moratorium on the EMN project and is holding a real public consultation on decision-making and contracting processes. This project is contrary to the public interest and has many problems. According to Charles Sainte-Marie, 1st vice-president of the CCMM-CSN, "this project has a major democratic deficit because it lacks a lot of essential information to make a good economic and environmental assessment and to measure the impact on public transit ". The Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec (CDPQ) refuses to reveal the impact of the project on the use of the automobile, urban sprawl and greenhouse gas emissions from the construction of this project. In addition, the government refuses to clearly disclose how the Regional Metropolitan Transportation Authority (ARTM) will allocate costs between municipalities and various public transit users.

This public / private partnership project has unacceptable terms! Remember that the question of maintaining the public character of our transportation services has always been at the heart of our concerns. By consenting to this project, governments are giving up public infrastructure for all eternity. For Gleason Frenette, President of the Montreal Transit Union (STM-CSN), "in its current form, the EMN is neither more nor less than the beginning of the privatization of public transit in the greater metropolitan area and greatly worries the employees of the Société de transport de Montréal ". Considering that the cost of EMN will certainly exceed $ 10 billion, and that the primary objective of the CDPQ is to make a profit, it is highly likely that public transit rates will increase.

About

Affiliated with the Confédération des syndicats nationaux, the CCMM-CSN brings together nearly 100,000 public and private sector members in 400 unions in Montreal, Laval , Nunavik and James Bay .

SOURCE Central Council of Metropolitan Montreal (CCMM-CSN)
https://translate.google.ca/transla...r-le-projet-du-rem-654912543.html&prev=search

Quoi?
 
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jje1000

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In any case, there’s a Montreal transit blog (basically MTL’s Steve Munro) that has posted a series of articles about the questionable nature of the REM proposal. As happy as I am to see this project progressing so randomly, the blog postings do bring up seemingly valid and potentially fatal concerns with regards to the viability of the project. I’m concerned REM was rammed through without proper due diligence. Will this end up being an expensive mistake?

REM will get built regardless of its finances. It's a Liberal prestige project- much like the Yonge extension to Vaughan.
 
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steveintoronto

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REM will get built regardless of its finances. It's a Liberal prestige project- much like the Yonge extension to Vaughan.
There are definitely similarities to Ontario, albeit Ontario nowhere near as blatant. The big 'if' with REM is not just political pandering and payoff, it's whether it will actually work as touted, and at what cost, both financially and in terms of the harm it does to other well-functioning and future-functioning heavy rail commuter operations. A number of analyses show it can't handle the number of commuters of the heavy rail it's displacing, e.g through the Mount Royal Tunnel.

And then there's the case of the Caisse...
 
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Cobra

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Day 2 and Valerie Plante is meeting the government of Quebec to discuss the Pink line financing. Valerie Plante met Justin Trudeau last night and he's a Montrealer after all.

I was listening to Montreal radio and feedback from Ottawa is that it's the province's responsibility to submit transit priorities. Ottawa pointed out that they have yet to received a formal blue line extension proposal from Quebec. Also, Quebec has approximately $7B for public transit. The REM is being awarded $1.5B and the blue line will get something. Laval and Longueuil wants more subway stations and Quebec City seems ready to come back with a LRT proposal. There won't be much left for the Pink Line.

So political analysts says that the best she can hope for is a clear schedule for the Pink Line and the true cost of the project. For the next election, she'll need to have the blue line under construction and a clear schedule on the pink line to help her get reelected.

So, Pink Metro Line? Might be done around the same time as our own DRL, maybe later, clearly not before.
 

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