Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[crs1026]

The City seems to feel that the connection to Line 2 will be needed for relief on the west side, but a properly built GO Service ought to be sufficient.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

First of all, what are we using for the DRL???

If Subway, will we see 4-10 car trains with express tracks?? If LRT, how many cars?? If Heavy Rail, how many cars??

Other than Bay (Combining the 2 into one like Europe with a PATH to the 2 other stations), Bathurst, Spadina, Dufferin, what other locations on either King or Queen will see 5,000 riders a Day??? Lansdowne and Broadview would be very close follow by Roncesvalles.

You are far off using existing line and the new one to service the gap between the stations that will never see 5,000 riders a day, let alone 2,000 that see service today.

 

[Translude15]

If Phase 1 (University-Pape) is completed around 2031 and Phase 2 (Pape-Sheppard) follows this opening 5 - 10 years later, we're looking at a Phase 3 opening of around 2050. By that point, even with the King St. Transit Mall, what becomes of the 504? The University Line? GO RER?

I'm of the belief that by mid-century there will be enough demand to warrant 2 subway lines through the core: the original DRL on Queen and the DRL II along King. Looking at the timeline of projects in the West end (Subway Extension to Vaughan, Finch, Eglinton, Jane & Waterfront West LRTs) as well as GO RER along the rail corridors, it seems the University Line will eventually need some sort of relief. There are impending capacity issues at Union Station with the implementation of GO RER as well.

Instead of turning north, the Queen Line extends west hitting High Park, South Kingsway (Jane LRT) and terminating at the new Park Lawn GO, which serves Humber Bay. The King Line, with an easier turning radius, swings north along Roncesvalles to Dundas West and continues north towards Mt. Dennis. Depending on where the GO RER station goes in Liberty Village, either line could intercept Milton, Barrie and Georgetown GO passengers headed for the core as opposed to riding all the way to Union. Lakeshore West passengers could transfer at either Park Lawn or Sunnyside.

In the east, the King and Queen lines intersect at Shumach, and the King line now ends up on Queen, terminating at the Beach. The original DRL swings north from Eastern towards Pape. The Waterfront LRT serves the waterfront and new Port Lands developments.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Maybe intersect at East Harbour instead.

 

[TransitBart]

The City seems to feel that the connection to Line 2 will be needed for relief on the west side, but a properly built GO Service ought to be sufficient.

- Paul

Why does everyone think a city the size of Toronto needs only two heavy rail subway lines? Is everyone arguing what is best for transit in a city of 6M, or just hoping to do something/ anything better than more buses within a limited funding envelope.

 

[WislaHD]

I'm of the belief that by mid-century there will be enough demand to warrant 2 subway lines through the core: the original DRL on Queen and the DRL II along King. Looking at the timeline of projects in the West end (Subway Extension to Vaughan, Finch, Eglinton, Jane & Waterfront West LRTs) as well as GO RER along the rail corridors, it seems the University Line will eventually need some sort of relief. There are impending capacity issues at Union Station with the implementation of GO RER as well.

Totally agree. If only the Federal government was willing to drop 20 billion dollars on transit in Toronto.

 

[crs1026]

Why does everyone think a city the size of Toronto needs only two heavy rail subway lines? Is everyone arguing what is best for transit in a city of 6M, or just hoping to do something/ anything better than more buses within a limited funding envelope.

It's a question of what timeframe we are talking about. There is far more needed in the next 15 years than we have the capability to execute. And yeah, at some point the money is all used up for a while.

- Paul

 

[Euphoria]

Great ideas all, but if we're pushing for the doable fifteen years out, we need to get the most bang out of every kilometer of track. Since it appears that the Scarborough subway will sensibly revert to the original 7-stop LRT under public pressure, we can probably persuade the city to add a few stations to the DRL west of University. Dougtoronto's plan makes good sense both for making many culturally significant areas accessible (between King and Dundas) and providing an important connection between ST and DRL in the part of the city that has seen the most growth, Liberty Village. His plan works as far as King and Sudbury for Phase One.

 

[Euphoria]

The only barrier to dougtoronto's plan of diverting southwest from Trinity Bellwoods to King and Sudbury might be the cost of tunneling deep enough to clear the neighborhood above the line, in which case, the first phase of the line could stay on Queen and end at Queen and Gladstone/Dufferin. The costs and benefits of both options warrant study.

 

[Hopkins123]

The SmartTrack station doesn't have to be located at King and Sudbury. Queen and Dufferin is a far more logical choice, and ergo keeping the DRL in a straight line across Queen to Dufferin makes the most sense. The number of condos going up between Dovercourt and Dufferin north of the rail corridor is comparable to what has developed in Liberty Village. What's so special about one condo cluster south of King that all transit plans must be contorted in knots just to serve it?

A GO station can be built at Strachan for Liberty Village with the next station (GO RER/SmartTrack/DRL interchange) at Parkdale (Queen/Dufferin). Simple.

 

[Euphoria]

There's already a GO station at the south end of Liberty Village: Exhibition. It's quite close to Strachan, which is why I'd support an ST station at Front and Bathurst. Not sure that's likely anytime soon. An ST station between King and Queen at Sudbury St. would be accessible from the King streetcar ROW and a future DRL station at Queen and Gladstone/Dufferin. In any event, it makes sense for the first phase of DRL to end at that rail corridor. The ST station location along that corridor depends, to some extent, on factors most of us can't ascertain, no matter how open source we are. Civil engineers and planners will have to do their feasibility studies.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Civil engineers?

Opps!! Wrong kind of engineers. Never mind.

 

[facepalming_brooklynite]

Why is going to Dundas West / Bloor Subway so important for the Western Extension?

I see it as an argument if you want to build the subway out to Mount Dennis and begin relieving the University line. However, there is much greater density being underserved by transit by Humber Bay Shores.

And better GO service going through Dundas West may already serve that amount Dennis corridor anyway.

Or how about going north on Dufferin? The Dufferin bus is one of the busiest surface routes, and this way the Western spur would connect with the Bloor line and the Eglinton Crosstown, without duplicating service provided by GO RER.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Or how about going north on Dufferin? The Dufferin bus is one of the busiest surface routes, and this way the Western spur would connect with the Bloor line and the Eglinton Crosstown, without duplicating service provided by GO RER.

Plus there are some redevelopment opportunities along Dufferin (Dufferin Mall/Bloor Collegiate - and if extended north - Galleria Mall)

AoD

 

[44 North]

Some possible western Relief Line alignments:


I see the western extension of Relief Line being built in two Stages; University to Sunnyside (GO), and then Sunnyside (GO) to the Bloor.

I'm personally not sure how the relief line is supposed to reasonably get from Queen back down to King on the west end (if Queen ultimately ends up chosen), but there are some definite advantages to the King routing, especially when it comes to staging and western extension. King allows for better station placement to interface with other local transit at Queen/Roncesvalles as well as making a better location to extract TBMs.



The curve radii are at 200m, I can't imagine them being able to be built much tighter than that. Most Queen alignment would have a setback from the Queen/Roncesvalles intersection, as well as significant distance from a potential Sunnyside GO station on the Lakeshore line. I have a personal preference for a King-Sunnyside routing as it allows the alignment to avoid much disruption to the Roncesvalles streetcar corridor and businesses in Roncesvalles Village, and has good potential to support development of the Roncesvalles Carhouse.

Well done. This is exactly what I want the City/TTC to be studying (along with fine-grained alignments for the NE portion of the line as far north as Finch/Don Mills). And I wouldn't at all doubt that they'd formulate alignments looking exactly like what you've proposed here. We need have this known now so that we can extend the phases ASAP - or my hope of doing it all at once.