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superman

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With the announcement of the Spadina-Front GO station, wonder if this station will now be worked into the DRL plan as an extra station... Or else this Union Station west concept wouldn't really work.
 

andrewpmk

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With the announcement of the Spadina-Front GO station, wonder if this station will now be worked into the DRL plan as an extra station... Or else this Union Station west concept wouldn't really work.

That would require having the sense to run the DRL along Front/Wellington or King. Preferably Front/Wellington because it would allow both the King and Queen streetcars to continue running during construction of the DRL.
 

WislaHD

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That would require having the sense to run the DRL along Front/Wellington or King. Preferably Front/Wellington because it would allow both the King and Queen streetcars to continue running during construction of the DRL.
And how would that have helped relieve Yonge line and Bloor-Yonge station over Queen alignment? That is the primary purpose of this subway.
 

andrewpmk

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And how would that have helped relieve Yonge line and Bloor-Yonge station over Queen alignment? That is the primary purpose of this subway.

I think that the primary purpose of the new subway is to serve developments on the waterfront and Don Mills Road. Relieving the Yonge line is a side effect of doing this.

We want people to use the new subway because it is convenient to do so. This means serving areas of the city that don't currently have subway service. The people who will use this subway are people whose origin or destination is closer to the new subway than the existing subway, and people who are currently using the 501 and 504 streetcars and bus route 25/185.

The major destinations along Queen Street already have subway service, while destinations east and west of downtown (like Exhibition Place, CityPlace, and Unilever site) do not currently have subway service. The Rogers Centre would be much closer to the new subway than the existing subway but only if it goes under King or Front/Wellington. The same is true with the employment cluster near King/Spadina. The new subway line (if it goes west of downtown) ought to reduce overcrowding on the Spadina streetcar significantly.
 

AlvinofDiaspar

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I think that the primary purpose of the new subway is to serve developments on the waterfront and Don Mills Road. Relieving the Yonge line is a side effect of doing this.

Development along the central waterfront does not require a full subway (if anything and Don Mills does not affect the downtown alignment.

AoD
 
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WislaHD

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I think that the primary purpose of the new subway is to serve developments on the waterfront and Don Mills Road. Relieving the Yonge line is a side effect of doing this.
It is not, according to the planners. It is relieving the Yonge Line and Bloor-Yonge Station. Those things you mention are of secondary benefit.

We want people to use the new subway because it is convenient to do so. This means serving areas of the city that don't currently have subway service. The people who will use this subway are people whose origin or destination is closer to the new subway than the existing subway, and people who are currently using the 501 and 504 streetcars and bus route 25/185.

The major destinations along Queen Street already have subway service, while destinations east and west of downtown (like Exhibition Place, CityPlace, and Unilever site) do not currently have subway service. The Rogers Centre would be much closer to the new subway than the existing subway but only if it goes under King or Front/Wellington. The same is true with the employment cluster near King/Spadina. The new subway line (if it goes west of downtown) ought to reduce overcrowding on the Spadina streetcar significantly.
The Relief Line should have gone to Bathurst and Queen in phase 1, IMO.

But going south to connect with a second Union Station seems questionable if it means not relieving Yonge/B-Y Station as adequately. Unilever is going to have a station with the Eastern Alignment. EX and CityPlace would be addressed with Waterfront LRT.
 

Cobra

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Also notable is that the extension to Sheppard (phase 2) likely won't be enough to bring the Yonge Line below capacity.

Would anyone like to say something about extending the line further north (and I know there are some who are eager to here)

It should go to Finch at the very least, Steeles would be better.
 

andrewpmk

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It is not, according to the planners. It is relieving the Yonge Line and Bloor-Yonge Station. Those things you mention are of secondary benefit.

I think that the DRL is about relieving the streetcars and replacing the Don Mills bus just as much as relieving the Yonge line. Did the planners actually come up with projections claiming that the Queen route will reduce Yonge line overcrowding more than the King route? I thought that the King route would be busier.

I can't imagine that Yonge Line overcrowding is ever going to go away with the DRL. It will only be reduced somewhat, primarily by diverting people from the northeast who live along Pape and Don Mills and nearby areas away from the Yonge line. There is still a need for an expensive project to rebuild Bloor-Yonge regardless of whether the DRL is built.
 

ksun

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The only way a Queen alignment can possibly work is if a Union Station GO train tunnel goes ahead at the same time. Putting the DRL on Queen is going to leave waterfront residents heavily dependent on GO Transit to get around because Queen Street is not within walking distance of the waterfront. Building new GO stations at Spadina and Liberty Village is encouraging but this is not going to help unless the Union Station capacity issue is solved and the Lakeshore and Kitchener lines can handle 30000/hour. If the Union Station GO tunnel is built then a Queen DRL + GO serves a larger area than a King DRL, but without a GO tunnel, a Queen DRL is going to leave GO overloaded and a Queen DRL is too far away for people living south of King Street to walk to.

Why are you still insisting the DRL should serve waterfront residents? It was never supposed to be one of its goals! So a Queen DRL can't, but a King DRL 350m to the south magically solve all the problem? You will have to come up with better arguments.

The point is that it will overload GO if the DRL runs along Queen Street. Few people going to destinations south of King Street will use a DRL that runs along Queen. Therefore, people going to Exhibition Place, CityPlace, the Rogers Centre, etc. are unlikely to use it. The result is that they will overload the GO Lakeshore line which will require a major capacity increase.

When exactly do you see the GO going to Exhibition Place, CityPlace and Rogers Centre "overloaded"? At 8:30am Monday- Friday? What do those riders go there for??
During the off peak hours, even the Yonge line is half empty most of the time where you are always guaranteed a seat, so you expect the GO to be overloaded and have "capacity issues"? Where is your math?

You keep missing the point that very few people need to go to Exhibition Place, CityPlace and Rogers Centre during rush hours so there is not a need for the DRL to serve these areas. I start to question your real motivation for arguing for a King alignment because nothing of what you said makes practical sense.
 

ksun

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A good question would be why the big priority on gentrifying Moss Park instead of supporting the private businesses making things happen in the city. The chart illustrates why the age old axiom 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' is so important.

Gentrification efforts to Moss Park are made by the market, not the government. It is the private sector that is starting to propose new projects nearby Queen/Sherbourne because there is still much untouched land. By having a DRL stop, we ARE supporting private business making things happen in the city, aren't we? King/Spadina and Yonge/Eglinton both already have two rail lines and are well served. And most of the other places in the list don't see compatible with a DL.
 

andrewpmk

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Why are you still insisting the DRL should serve waterfront residents? It was never supposed to be one of its goals! So a Queen DRL can't, but a King DRL 350m to the south magically solve all the problem? You will have to come up with better arguments.



When exactly do you see the GO going to Exhibition Place, CityPlace and Rogers Centre "overloaded"? At 8:30am Monday- Friday? What do those riders go there for??
During the off peak hours, even the Yonge line is half empty most of the time where you are always guaranteed a seat, so you expect the GO to be overloaded and have "capacity issues"? Where is your math?

You keep missing the point that very few people need to go to Exhibition Place, CityPlace and Rogers Centre during rush hours so there is not a need for the DRL to serve these areas. I start to question your real motivation for arguing for a King alignment because nothing of what you said makes practical sense.

Currently GO service is pretty much unusable so people going to those areas use the King streetcar, which is horribly overcrowded. Once GO electrification happens, those people will probably be using GO instead.
 

macookie

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Phase 2 - should extend the line up Pape to Flammington Park, make a connection to the GO at Ellesmere and continue to STC. Thus the $3.9 billion one-stop subway express project can be cancelled, and STC will still be serviced by a Subway.

It should go to Finch at the very least, Steeles would be better.
 

denfromoakvillemilton

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I see that in todays report that the Relief Line to Sheppard/Don Mills is officially designated as phase 2.
Where's today's report?
Also notable is that the extension to Sheppard (phase 2) likely won't be enough to bring the Yonge Line below capacity.

Would anyone like to say something about extending the line further north (and I know there are some who are eager to here)
And this is the result of procrastination. Five years ago the line to Sheppard would have, but we have waited too long.
 

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