syn
Senior Member
Why should we assume they have?
Ontario Line | ?m | ?s
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
Why should we assume they have?
Northern Light
Superstar
a) Excellent Link, Paul.
b) I want to commend you on staying cool-headed. You deserve better than some here have offered recently. You're an excellent, level-headed contributor.
Even when we disagree, which isn't all that often, you're almost always open to fruitful and thoughtful exchange. As it should be. But well-set example.
generalcanada
Active Member
optimism vs pessimism.
until proven otherwise i assume a public transit agency with hundreds of architects, engineers and experts who really do try their best to find the most cost effective, efficient best designs possible.
im really curious as to the intentions you think metrolinx has? that theese PEOPLE want to destroy trees?
Deadpool X
Active Member
Discussions on this thread have become so intense that it's keeping everyone busy here and other threads have dried up a little 
evandyk
Senior Member
I would say that there's been a bit of drama on this thread, but most contributors have been pretty constructive.
crs1026
Senior Member
Organizations regularly develop "blinders" and internal culture that causes them to behave disfunctionally or stray from public interest. That's just the nature of organizations. Politicising organizations' missions makes that even more likely. There are glaringly tragic examples - Three Mile Island, the Challenger crash, Walkerton, Lac Megantic - but there are many more less significant missteps that happen because organizations are in a hurry or believe that one mission outweighs all others (contrary to what is possible or optimal).
Having effective challenge and oversight processes that require organizations to show their sums to the public and defend their decisions is vital to protecting the public interest. Professionals in organizations eg Design Engineers understand those challenges are part of their job and they will have to "run the gauntlet" with their products. A wise man once said - we trust, but we verify.
It's very apparent that ML tries to sidestep all that.
As I tried to show above, this wasn't a small cabal of naive or misguided people deciding that their views outweighed the public good of a subway, or that the subway should be stopped. It was a case of the significant majority of Toronto City Council expressing grave reservations about ML's handling of the Ontario Line, and being ignored by ML and overriden by the Province. That supposed cabal may have just been a group of motley volunteers who jumped into an unwinnable argument, but sometimes it's about mounting the opposition even when you are outgunned. And maybe those "volunteers" had their own stature in the discussion, and plenty of backing in the City food chain.
While I find parliamentary processes childish and absurd at times, the existence of a loyal opposition (in parliament) and the right to mount challenges (in courts and tribunals - an adversarial system at heart) is what protects us from missteps from government. It may be ugly to watch, but it is all we have.
- Paul
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picard102
Senior Member
I guess you haven't heard of Eglinton.
They've developed their little fiefdom, and are not interested in hearing from the plebs. They've had plenty of time to deal with particular situation and at every turn they have chosen to not do so.
They went out to cut down the trees as the court was about the hear the injunction, and you think this is a good faith organization of people? The trees don't even need to be cut down for months, as no work is being done.
T3G
Active Member
Exactly this. Not only that, but they also went out during the deep freeze to begin the cutting of the trees. If they had done it on even a warmer day like today, never mind in the spring or summer, far more people would be able to see what it was that they were up to. Why such clandestine behaviour?
Metrolinx has demonstrated at every turn that they are not to be trusted. They have made a lot of terrible decisions in their management of GO Transit, from the severing of an important link between Oakville and Milton (route 20), to the shockingly poor communication all those weekends when the GO bus was diverted to Port Credit due to traffic along the Gardiner (itself a failure of magnificent proportions), to the waste of taxpayer monies on tendering a repainting of the whole BiLevel fleet to the new colour scheme (something which brings no benefit to anyone), to the changing of the GO Train schedule so that the doors close a full minute before the indicated departure time on the schedule. Anecdotally, I have also been told off by their construction workers for using the sidewalk outside of Kennedy that was in no way, shape, or form indicated as being closed to the public. Apparently, the rules of disclosing which areas are to be accessed, and which ones are not, do not apply to Metrolinx, so their arrogance in believing they can do whatever they like on the Osgoode grounds comes as no shock to me.
These people are not our allies. They do whatever they like with full impunity. Any public good they may deliver is merely incidental, a trivial afterthought.
sunnyside
Active Member
They do this given established constraints. Engineers do seriously little “outside of the box” thinking because they are, metaphorically speaking, the box itself- the way things, anything, can be done practically. Not to say they don’t have their own means of contributing to finding efficiencies and such, but they do so within certain parameters established by non-technical experts and factors. Politician says x, planners do y, engineers do z, etc. It can be the inverse, but that’s reactive.
I don’t want to get too deep in the trees argument because I can see the merit in both sides- the OL is necessary, and should be completed as fast as possible- however, I have a hard time believing the trees NEED to be removed, or cant be moved temporarily. I can believe that this is the only possible option for time and moneys sake, but some rationale from Mx would be nice.
The point is, the engineers have no skin in this game. They found what was an optimal design for the criteria’s sake, and the trees were evidently not high up on the priority list in that regard (again, unless some rationale proving the prohibitiveness of this is shown).
generalcanada
Active Member
Seems i got some flack for being optimistic.
To be clear. please, prove me wrong. still havent seen anyone with engineer experience comment on that report saying that independent report is wrong? just that they think it might be
and remember why this is only an issue now and why it SEEMED metrolinx kinda rushed to cut the trees.
They (imo rightfully) saw the report as a go/no-go for construction, they knew they were right so with the only ask from the community resolved they felt they were good.
maybe ive been bit peeved by riverside/flemingdon park/smalls creek/yonge north residents theese last few years who always change their ask after their original ask is resolved (move the goalposts)
Again i want to be proven wrong, everyone who says metrolinx is a bad organization who gives no care for the enviroment god i want it to be true. but please prove it other than hyperbole
To be clear. please, prove me wrong. still havent seen anyone with engineer experience comment on that report saying that independent report is wrong? just that they think it might be
and remember why this is only an issue now and why it SEEMED metrolinx kinda rushed to cut the trees.
They (imo rightfully) saw the report as a go/no-go for construction, they knew they were right so with the only ask from the community resolved they felt they were good.
maybe ive been bit peeved by riverside/flemingdon park/smalls creek/yonge north residents theese last few years who always change their ask after their original ask is resolved (move the goalposts)
Again i want to be proven wrong, everyone who says metrolinx is a bad organization who gives no care for the enviroment god i want it to be true. but please prove it other than hyperbole
TRONto
Active Member
Not exactly a direct response, but as an FYI, I know a few employees and ex-employees of Metrolinx and the way its run would be closer to a case study of how not to run an organization. I've heard that's its very political vs delivering good outcomes. What we see on the outside very much fits what I hear about the inside.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Sounds like Metrolinx mismanaged the project yet again. At the very least, failed to inform the public why a historical site needs to be disturbed and the trees cut, if it's true that there is no better option. Quite possibly, better options exist but were overlooked.
That said, is it feasible to plant the same kind of trees once the construction is completed? Obviously, they will take many decades to mature, and even then they won't be the "original" trees, so that's not a full restoration. However, the original trees wouldn't live forever, they would die at some point and would have to be removed. The replacement of trees kind of resets the clock.
That said, is it feasible to plant the same kind of trees once the construction is completed? Obviously, they will take many decades to mature, and even then they won't be the "original" trees, so that's not a full restoration. However, the original trees wouldn't live forever, they would die at some point and would have to be removed. The replacement of trees kind of resets the clock.
picard102
Senior Member
If going out of their way to circumvent an injunction isn't enough evidence that it's a bad actor, I don't know what would convince you they are not.
They believe they are above the law, and the people they are meant to serve. Take a look at Eglinton if you want further proof they don't gaf.
picard102
Senior Member
Sure, if they weren't planning to plop a station where they were and destroy heritage features in the process.
sunnyside
Active Member
If Metrolinx is as poorly run on the inside as it appears on the outside, the institution needs a purge and rethink of what role it is supposed to play. I, and the informed public in general, can chalk most of the problems up till now up to circumstance and possibly external factors. But if this is truly not the case, and the agency is rotten, then we need to fix it before it starts getting some serious assets under its belt. Metrolinx has not been around very long, and if these things aren’t addressed the problems will compound. We should have the time and means to do this.