Ontario Line | ?m | ?s

[nfitz]

once the infrastructure and service is in place nothing is stopping them from upgrading to EMUs later.

And nothing has stopped them upgrading to DMUs for the last 55 years. And yet here we are.

It would be insanely costly to replace the entire GO Fleet now, plus refit all the maintenance yards for EMUs. We have more bi-level passenger cars than we could ever find a buyer for, so it's far more cost effective to just switch to locomotives, and use the existing rail cars until they hit their service life.

Of course they'll be keeping the bi-levels. But at the same time, there's going to be expansions, so there's no point buying more bi-levels. New equipment can be a mix of electric locomotives, and new EMU trains - there's no reason they can't be run mixed in with electric locomotives.

... it feels most likely that we'll see a transition to EMUs line by line as the existing fleet ages out of service.

With the service expansions and increases, they are going to need more cars. Unless there's a solid plan in place, to start buying some EMUs, we'll see more bi-levels similar to what we have now.

 

[afransen]

And nothing has stopped them upgrading to EMUs for the last 55 years. And yet here we are.

I'd say the lack of electrification is a factor.

The bi-levels could be useful if Metrolinx continues to put a greater emphasis on longer-distance services. I imagine that ramping up service dramatically is going to require at least some amount of new rolling stock. It seems reasonable that as that becomes necessary, EMUs will be considered for some of the lines.

 

[nfitz]

I'd say the lack of electrification is a factor.

LOL!

I fixed my bizarre typo. DMUs.

 

[W. K. Lis]

It's for reasons like the following that we should still have personnel (TTC personnel preferred) on the Ontario Line trains, even if they are automated. We need humans to call help or provide assistance.

Woman dead, another seriously injured in High Park subway stabbings​

From link.

One woman is dead and another is injured after a stabbing at High Park station just after 2 p.m. Thursday. It’s the latest in a string of violent incidents on the TTC this year.

Toronto police responded to calls about a person assaulting and stabbing people on the eastbound subway platform.

Upon arrival, they found two people stabbed, who were given medical attention at the scene. Paramedics said they took two adult women, one with serious injuries and one with life-threatening injuries, to hospital.

Const. Shannon Whitehead confirmed one of the two victims had died. The other has serious injuries but is expected to survive.

Whitehead couldn’t confirm the ages of the victims.

One man has been arrested and police believe there is no further threat to the public.

City councillor Gord Perks, who represents the High Park area, was shaken by the stabbings.

“I am absolutely horrified. Toronto has seen too much violence against women and it must stop,” he said.

In a written statement, Toronto Mayor John Tory expressed his shock at the stabbings, “like all Torontonians.”

“We can never accept acts of violence of this kind happening anywhere in our city,” said Tory. “My thoughts are with the family and friends of the woman who has lost her life. We hope for the quick recovery of another woman who is in hospital with injuries.”

Tory also said he plans to meet with the TTC and police to discuss ways to improve safety for riders.

“Our transit system should always be a safe place for everyone at all times. We will simply have to sit down again with the TTC and police officials to see what more we can do to ensure the safety of TTC passengers beyond the many measures the TTC has put in place,” he said.

TTC spokesperson Stuart Green insisted that the TTC is still safe to ride.

“Safety of customers and employees is paramount to all the TTC does,” he said. “The TTC moves hundreds of millions of customers every year without incident, but is constantly looking at ways to improve safety.”

He also expressed condolences in a written statement.

“The thoughts of everyone at the TTC are with the victims and their families, friends and loved ones at this difficult time,” said Green, adding that TTC CEO Rick Leary spoke to police Chief James Ramer in the wake of the incident.

A video circulating online and posted by some media websites appears to show police attempting to take the attacker into custody, shouting at the man to get down on the ground. Nervous commuters are seen watching from a distance.

In July, 28-year-old Nyima Dolma died of injuries suffered a month earlier when she was doused with a flammable liquid and then set on fire in a TTC bus outside of Kipling Station.

In April, a woman narrowly missed being struck by a train after getting shoved onto the tracks at Bloor-Yonge station.

Subway service had been halted Thursday between Keele and Jane stations, with shuttle buses running instead. Buses were not stopping near High Park station.

Anyone with information can contact Crime Stoppers anonymously at 416-222-8477.

 

[T3G]

I agree with you. Quite apart from automation making it much harder to find work as more people are forced to compete for less jobs, the lack of trained people in emergency procedures will surely make the system more dangerous.

 

[afransen]

Frankly, I'm not convinced a rent-a-cop would have made much difference in this situation. And it's not like the train operator is dealing with unruly passengers. I'm not sure how automated train operation is related to security.

 

[Steve X]

I agree with you. Quite apart from automation making it much harder to find work as more people are forced to compete for less jobs, the lack of trained people in emergency procedures will surely make the system more dangerous.

What they really need is real time security monitoring and emergency push bars that will alert security. Clearly if these incidents keep happening, people would prefer being watched remotely than having their privacy. The TTC however fears some employees would be bored and watch/track people for whatever personal reasons. The problem is there is no police/EMS station at any subway stations.

We can also agree that any incidents happening on trains would be difficult to stop before it's too late. If someone were to kill someone, they got a good 2-3 minutes to perform the act before the train arrives at the next station.

 

[allengeorge]

My uninformed take:

The root of all these problems are high housing prices as well as not enough mental health and addiction support (along with the bizarre funding model where cities have to pay a big chunk of the cost of this outta property taxes.)

That said, we can’t just focus solve the root causes and ignore the here-and-now. We need both. People need to feel safe when using the transit system, even if some portion of that is purely theatre. Maybe part of that is more aggressive enforcement by the TPS and transit security personnel. I don’t know. But ignoring things isn’t going to make the problem go away, and if people keep hearing about crazy stuff happening on the TTC they’ll avoid using it - even if it’s a vanishingly small chance of having an issue. We’re bad with risk analysis that way.

 

[T3G]

Frankly, I'm not convinced a rent-a-cop would have made much difference in this situation. And it's not like the train operator is dealing with unruly passengers. I'm not sure how automated train operation is related to security.

No way to contact the emergency services? (* Even if there was, what certification is there that people will accurately deduce where they are?) People untrained in emergency procedures freezing up and not knowing what to do? (This applies as much to calls for police/paramedics as it does to evacuation procedures).

It's not a panacea and there's only so much that can be done to prevent violent attacks like this, but I have always felt that automated subway trains are a rolling death trap.

 

[allengeorge]

It's not a panacea and there's only so much that can be done to prevent violent attacks like this, but I have always felt that automated subway trains are a rolling death trap.

It’s unclear to me that train operators will do much either. If you’re in the drivers seat, you’re not going to jump out, run down and tackle an assailant (in fact, my naive guess is that they’re under orders to sit tight in the cab no matter what). I suspect that most assailants are stopped by other passengers or police, but I wouldn’t be able to prove it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

While there will likely be emergency buttons, strips, and CCTV, we will need some personnel on the train to apply first aid (should be a requirement for employment) and contact 9-1-1. The personnel should be a buffer to filter out false alarms and true emergencies.

From link dated 2014.

 

[T3G]

It’s unclear to me that train operators will do much either. If you’re in the drivers seat, you’re not going to jump out, run down and tackle an assailant (in fact, my naive guess is that they’re under orders to sit tight in the cab no matter what). I suspect that most assailants are stopped by other passengers or police, but I wouldn’t be able to prove it.

I didn't say they'd be able to fend off an assailant - that's one of the areas there is no solution for.

But having trained personnel would help with contacting the authorities, responding in case of medical emergencies, or evacuations.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I didn't say they'd be able to fend off an assailant - that's one of the areas there is no solution for.

But having trained personnel would help with contacting the authorities, responding in case of medical emergencies, or evacuations.

Not every passenger will be able to read the posted English instructions. Can't have them displayed in every language of the world.

 

[afransen]

Frankly, this would be better addressed by remote CCTV and AI monitoring than having one 70 year old guy on a 100m train.

 

[T3G]

How does remote CCTV and AI monitoring help with the evacuation of a train?