Ontario Line | ?m | ?s

[evandyk]

Three of the ones below Chester are going to be getting pretty significant intensification, so I'd expect Chester to drop down to the bottom of the list eventually. Even Bessarion will eventually pass it.

 

[nfitz]

IIRC the difference, at least with Queen and Osgoode, is the OL tunnel will be built into the bedrock at those stations, so they won't have to underpin the existing subway tunnel the way they did with Eglinton and Eg West. That's why in the diagram for Queen station, the OL station is largely built to either side of the existing station. Not to say these stations won't be complex or could slow down the project, but they aren't being built in the same way that slowed down the Eglinton transfer stations, thankfully.

The bedrock downtown is shale, and can be very soft. This isn't like Montreal where you can just tunnel through the bedrock willy-nilly. You may even need to underpin.

I'd think the biggest difference for the Ontario Line is that Osgoode and Queen are part of the main contract, and will be starting with the others, rather than a later contract, and playing catch-up the whole time.

 

[crs1026]

If you have ever asked yourself “Is anything sacred to these people ?”

The answer is : um, no.

Metrolinx plans to cut down historic Osgoode Hall trees after all

- Paul
(speechless)

 

[toronto647]

November 2022 Market Update release earlier today. Relevant OL information see below:

DPA Development Phase Agreement expected to be announced early next year.

Important to note that the final Project Agreement will be signed right before the next election. Essentially ensuring this project cannot be cancelled or altered in any way shape or form if Ford loses. Smart move. I guess what we have in terms of alignment for the northern section is set in stone now.

Project Ontario Line – Elevated Guideway and Stations
Project Phase Active Procurement
Model Progressive DB (target price)
PDC/TA Procurement Awarded
Issue RFQ November 2022
Issue RFP Jan - Mar 2023
Contract Execution DPA: Jan - Mar 2024 AND PA: Jan - Mar 2025
Design & Construction Cost $1B - $2B

Project Ontario Line – Pape Tunnel and Underground Stations
Project Phase Active Procurement
Model Progressive DB (target price)
PDC/TA Procurement Awarded
Issue RFQ November 2022
Issue RFP Jan - Mar 2023
Contract Execution DPA: Jan - Mar 2024 AND PA: Jul - Sep 2026
Design & Construction Cost $1B - $2B

Source - https://www.infrastructureontario.c...et_Update/Market Update_11212022_FINAL_EN.pdf

 

[toronto647]

November 2022 Market Update release earlier today. Relevant OL information see below:

DPA Development Phase Agreement expected to be announced early next year.

Important to note that the final Project Agreement will be signed right before the next election. Essentially ensuring this project cannot be cancelled or altered in any way shape or form if Ford loses. Smart move. I guess what we have in terms of alignment for the northern section is set in stone now.

Project Ontario Line – Elevated Guideway and Stations
Project Phase Active Procurement
Model Progressive DB (target price)
PDC/TA Procurement Awarded
Issue RFQ November 2022
Issue RFP Jan - Mar 2023
Contract Execution DPA: Jan - Mar 2024 AND PA: Jan - Mar 2025
Design & Construction Cost $1B - $2B

Project Ontario Line – Pape Tunnel and Underground Stations
Project Phase Active Procurement
Model Progressive DB (target price)
PDC/TA Procurement Awarded
Issue RFQ November 2022
Issue RFP Jan - Mar 2023
Contract Execution DPA: Jan - Mar 2024 AND PA: Jul - Sep 2026
Design & Construction Cost $1B - $2B

Source - https://www.infrastructureontario.c...et_Update/Market Update_11212022_FINAL_EN.pdf

Can someone explain what is the DPA Development Phase Agreement PA Project Agreement and what the value of it is over the usual contract execution one date? Appreciate any insights.

 

[adys123]

Can someone explain what is the DPA Development Phase Agreement PA Project Agreement and what the value of it is over the usual contract execution one date? Appreciate any insights.

Since these are Progressive DB contracts, the DPA allows the preferred proponent to collaborate with the client to develop the designs, requirements, and actively negotiate on the cost. In the end, they create a project agreement that is more achievable because it was developed together. Some of the advantages are that the cost estimate can be more precise and that it creates a more amicable working relationship between the proponent and the client.

 

[toronto647]

Since these are Progressive DB contracts, the DPA allows the preferred proponent to collaborate with the client to develop the designs, requirements, and actively negotiate on the cost. In the end, they create a project agreement that is more achievable because it was developed together. Some of the advantages are that the cost estimate can be more precise and that it creates a more amicable working relationship between the proponent and the client.

Would you say that once the DPA is signed the deal is done in the sense that the government can't back out?

My other concern is the tunnel contract PA is not until September 2026. Does this mean that the tunnel work won't start till potentially 2027? Isn't that quite late in the process? Or am I missing something.

 

[adys123]

Would you say that once the DPA is signed the deal is done in the sense that the government can't back out?

My other concern is the tunnel contract PA is not until September 2026. Does this mean that the tunnel work won't start till potentially 2027? Isn't that quite late in the process? Or am I missing something.

I wouldn't say that is necessarily the case, that depends on the specific language that is used. But, there is definitely an expectation that the group you've been working with during the development phase will also continue with the actual execution of the work. In a way, that could signal intention.

Well, the good thing with DPA is that since the proponent helps to shape it, they are able to get familiar with it as it evolves. Usually tunnelling is fairly straightforward, so I'm not too concerned about the timing there. However, you would be right that the tunnel work will not start until the PA is signed.

 

[toronto647]

I wouldn't say that is necessarily the case, that depends on the specific language that is used. But, there is definitely an expectation that the group you've been working with during the development phase will also continue with the actual execution of the work. In a way, that could signal intention.

Well, the good thing with DPA is that since the proponent helps to shape it, they are able to get familiar with it as it evolves. Usually tunnelling is fairly straightforward, so I'm not too concerned about the timing there. However, you would be right that the tunnel work will not start until the PA is signed.

If tunneling were to start some point in 2027 followed by stations being constructed and then testing and whatever else in between. It doesn't appear that this line will open by 2031 as the new projected date that Metrolinx has stated.

 

[generalcanada]

https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2022/11/io_p3_statustracking_november_2022-1.pdf

according to this it seems like the total of the ontario line is now coming close to $20 billion.
9 for the trains, 6 for the tunneling south and 4 or 5 for north of pape

 

[AlxOptimism]

If tunneling were to start some point in 2027 followed by stations being constructed and then testing and whatever else in between. It doesn't appear that this line will open by 2031 as the new projected date that Metrolinx has stated.

TBM's only just began tunneling for the Broadway subway in Vancouver and that is expected to be substantially completed in 2.5 years for a Q4 2025 opening (though a delay is quite possible). Length is comparable to the Pape tunnel. Supposedly the TBM's will "pass through" the already excavated pits of the future stations, and it will only take about a year to bore ~4km of tunnel. I know Toronto's geology is different but certainly 4-5 years is enough time to tunnel ~3.15km and build 2 stations? I also don't see why work couldn't begin in 2026 when the contract will be awarded between January and March 2026

 

[innsertnamehere]

https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2022/11/io_p3_statustracking_november_2022-1.pdf

according to this it seems like the total of the ontario line is now coming close to $20 billion.
9 for the trains, 6 for the tunneling south and 4 or 5 for north of pape

The $9 number is almost entirely for 30 years of operating, not capital construction. Only maybe a billion or two is actual construction.

 

[syn]

Can Adam Vaughan just go away? Having a true East-West subway line in the downtown core is a huge deal, and yet this guy is solely opposing it on the basis the PC's proposed it (and I say this as someone who would never vote PC).

While I'm a fan of westward expansion (and the two stations on King), he does have a point.

I would've used those funds to ensure the first phase went to Sheppard before worrying about extending it to the Exhibition.

 

[T3G]

The $9 number is almost entirely for 30 years of operating, not capital construction. Only maybe a billion or two is actual construction.

I find this figure to be highly suspect. A billion or two is how much a surface LRT like Finch West costs ($2.5 bil is the quoted cost for Finch West. The estimate for the Eglinton Crosstown at present is $12 billion. SSE is $5.5 billion. There's no way the Ontario line, twice as long as the SSE, is only going to cost a paltry billion or two to construct.

 

[rbt]

I find this figure to be highly suspect. A billion or two is how much a surface LRT like Finch West costs ($2.5 bil is the quoted cost for Finch West. The estimate for the Eglinton Crosstown at present is $12 billion. SSE is $5.5 billion. There's no way the Ontario line, twice as long as the SSE, is only going to cost a paltry billion or two to construct.

The $9B contract referenced above is Rolling Stock, Maintenance, and System Operations.

Capital components includes roughly 40 trains, the maintenance facility, Operations Control Centre (primary and backup), and in-station communications items ( WiFi, CCTV, passenger information screens, etc) : $2B isn't an unreasonable estimate for those.