Ontario Line | ?m | ?s

[innsertnamehere]

For clarity, the O/L is unlikely to open by December 2030; its always possible, but that's certainly optimistic.

Also, the largest chunk of 'savings' in overlapping segments of the O/L an d Relief Line aren't from any changes in alignment, they are from smaller stations and lower capacity rolling stock.

I don't think we need to, and I will not re litigate the whole question of which project design is better and why; but I will make the case that you are awarding credit for achievement that isn't really merited.

Segment for segment, if one chose to go with the reduced capacity model, you could have built the R/L (meaning same alignment) and easily afforded the extension to Eglinton.

***

Alternatively, based on the R/L's unit cost, had you bloated the budget by 4B, or roughly 57%, allowing for fixed costs etc, you certainly could have achieved a 65% increase in length and stations. That gets you at least 11.5km of length.

And that is also if you believe the O/L budget holds.

Ford didn't deliver any miracle or panacea, he delivered delay, much consternation, and reduced capacity with, yes, an advancement of future extensions by a few years.

A reduced capacity of about 10%, it's not massive. The OL has more capacity than the existing subway as well - it's not some low capacity line.

Some of the savings are from the technology change, yes, but most of it actually come from surfacing the line along the Lakeshore Corridor and elevating it further north and at Exhibition. The alignment went from around ~7km of tunnels to ~4.5km of tunnels to get from Queen and University to the Danforth, a ~35% reduction. The entire OL line only has about 8.5km of tunnels on it's 15km corridor length, and that's where it really saves on costs.

The technology change is a big reason the line makes so much sense anyway as it is what enables a lot of things like shallower stations, surfacing along the Lakeshore corridor, etc., and still provides roughly 2x the capacity of projected demand on the line.

Make no mistake, the OL is not some brainchild of Ford himself.. I somehow doubt he's a transit aficionado looking to make innovative changes to subway system designs. I suspect the OL was pitched to Ford by Metrolinx, which had previously published similar ideas (i.e. a subway connection from downtown to Exhibition to take pressure off of Union Station for the GO system). Ford simply backed that decision, which I think was the right one in the end.

He's also making stupid mistakes elsewhere, like burying Eglinton West.. But I think people are right to give him credit for genuinely pushing these projects forward as quickly as possible. There is a clear eagerness for his government to get major infrastructure projects actually underway ASAP, unlike the Liberals.

 

[Northern Light]

A reduced capacity of about 10%, it's not massive. The OL has more capacity than the existing subway as well - it's not some low capacity line.

Some of the savings are from the technology change, yes, but most of it actually come from surfacing the line along the Lakeshore Corridor and elevating it further north and at Exhibition. The alignment went from around ~7km of tunnels to ~4.5km of tunnels to get from Queen and University to the Danforth, a ~35% reduction. The entire OL line only has about 8.5km of tunnels on it's 15km corridor length, and that's where it really saves on costs.

The technology change is a big reason the line makes so much sense anyway as it is what enables a lot of things like shallower stations, surfacing along the Lakeshore corridor, etc., and still provides roughly 2x the capacity of projected demand on the line.

Make no mistake, the OL is not some brainchild of Ford himself.. I somehow doubt he's a transit aficionado looking to make innovative changes to subway system designs. I suspect the OL was pitched to Ford by Metrolinx, which had previously published similar ideas (i.e. a subway connection from downtown to Exhibition to take pressure off of Union Station for the GO system). Ford simply backed that decision, which I think was the right one in the end.

He's also making stupid mistakes elsewhere, like burying Eglinton West.. But I think people are right to give him credit for genuinely pushing these projects forward as quickly as possible. There is a clear eagerness for his government to get major infrastructure projects actually underway ASAP, unlike the Liberals.

The segment from just east of East Harbour, to the next tunnel segment at about Pape is 1.7km - Mx suggests the price difference for burying vs tunnel for this segment is 800M .

I don't know if we have a net number for the remaining differential segment (Parliament to East Harbour), undoubtedly there are some savings though there are material off-set costs as bridges will have to be built/enlarged and some full-sized Hydro Pylons moved/buried as well.

 

[mind_the_gap]

I absolutely love it when Toronto copies other cities well. These new train renders really give me Stockholm vibes…

(Siemens) C30 exterior:

Source

Modernized (Bombardier) C20 interior:

Source

… especially with Metrolinx’s use of the ”T in a circle” logo, that Stockholm also uses for their subway lines, I’ll feel like I’m in Sweden again.

Source

In all seriousness though, I’m extremely happy to see the Ontario line is happening. Dare I say, it’s the best thing to happen to this city in a long time, and far superior to the Relief Line it replaced. Just my two cents.

 

[afransen]

The Liberals had, what, 15 years in power and in that time managed to start construction on one subway extension and the crosstown. Ford is 4 years into his government and has 2 LRTs and 3 subway lines under construction.

To be fair, they did get the early work going on GO Expansion. It was far too slow, and had a lot of shenanigans like hydrogen slowing the process unnecessarily, but they did have the vision to get things rolling on the most ambitious regional rail program in North America.

 

[afransen]

Ford has a lot of problematic policies, his infrastructure spending targets aren't one of them. And as much as people mash their teeth about Ford skipping over environmental reviews, those streamlinings are actually enabling projects to happen in less than a generation

My only gripe is if we planned far enough in advance, we could do all the appropriate environmental reviews and consultation without slowing the rate of investment. Why are we not already planning OL north, etc.

 

[drum118]

Connect 6ix team awarded C$9 billion Ontario Line contract​

Hitachi Rail gets near $7 billion contract for Ontario subway line​

 

[felix123]

Glad to see there are now vehicle interior renderings. I just wish it wasn’t so space aged 80’s (eg. Star Trek, Star Wars etc.), at least thats the feeling I’m getting from the images and all that chunky grey plastic. Something like Montreal’s AZUR train interior would be nice.

Looking at this and the LRT vehicles, seems like Metrolinks prefers to keep the modern business aesthetic vehicle interiors to GO transit.

I quite like the renderings for the OL trains.

As far as the Azur, it's a very nice design but with Bombardier out of the picture I don't think we'll be seeing many trains like that anymore. Alstom's designs are trash - even if they release a modified MPM-10 for another city, I'm sure it'll have tiny windows and their usual dollar-store treatment.

 

[Northern Light]

The Azur has nicer lighting than what is rendered for the Toronto rollingstock.

However, I prefer the lighting on Skytrain in Vancouver:

from: https://www.burnabynow.com/local-ne...nterior-design-tips-for-skytrain-cars-3091610

Much less stark.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I absolutely love it when Toronto copies other cities well. These new train renders really give me Stockholm vibes…

(Siemens) C30 exterior:

Source

Modernized (Bombardier) C20 interior:

Source

… especially with Metrolinx’s use of the ”T in a circle” logo, that Stockholm also uses for their subway lines, I’ll feel like I’m in Sweden again.

Source

In all seriousness though, I’m extremely happy to see the Ontario line is happening. Dare I say, it’s the best thing to happen to this city in a long time, and far superior to the Relief Line it replaced. Just my two cents.

When Toronto built it's first subway along Yonge Street from Union to Eglinton Stations, it copied New York City subway as a model.

 

[toronto647]

The current project goes farther west but not as far north (with phase 2, which Ford cancelled). Which is better isn't nearly as cut and dry as you suggest. The relief line work was moving at breakneck speed as well, after decades of dormancy.

Don't forget that the previous government got a lot of transit under construction as well, like the Crosstown, UPX, line 1 extension, and GO upgrades for example. And they laid the groundwork for basically all of the transit expansion happening today.

No one party or premier can take full credit for most big transit projects.

Ford hasn't cancelled phase 2.. It will be extending North and provisions have been made to allow the OL to do so.. Let them close the North Section RFQ and they will then commence planning for the North Extension.

The Liberals UPX is a failure, Crosstown is still not open lol, GO upgrades isn't what we are talking about right now. We are referring to Toronto related projects. Line 1 goes till Vaughn great but they should have been focusing on the Relief Line or other projects that will impact Toronto and ease congestion and back log on Line 1 not just put more fire into it. So in the Liberals reign they were all talk talk talk.

Ford go it done.

 

[toronto647]

to be clear it goes both further north and west than the previous project.

The Relief line went from University to the Danforth, that's it. The city had some preliminary thoughts about an eventual northern extension to Sheppard.. but they were just that, thoughts. There was no real project there at all. If given time it eventually would have turned into a project, but likely not one which would have been completed for decades.

Yes - the Liberals are largely responsible for Finch West and Hurontario, as well as getting GO RER started. But we all know that the Liberals decided to take 11 years to start construction on Finch W. And ultimately, the Liberal's problem was they were excellent at planning projects, yet suspiciously little of it got to construction. Promise something for a decade+ with no real action.. same thing the Federal liberals are doing by dragging out Via HFR right now.

The liberals studied lots of projects, no doubt. But ultimately, in their 15 years, they have a subway extension to an industrial park to Vaughan, an over-priced diesel train to the airport, a trickling of minor GO transit service improvements, and a poorly designed, overpriced,, much delayed LRT line on Eglinton to show for it. Studies don't matter if it isn't built.

Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[toronto647]

My only gripe is if we planned far enough in advance, we could do all the appropriate environmental reviews and consultation without slowing the rate of investment. Why are we not already planning OL north, etc.

There are so many projects going on right now... the largest expansion in history. Not enough workers to go around and funding has dried up for now. My prediction is closer to the next election Ford will come out with a new plan which he will present that will include OL North Extension. By then construction will be well underway for all his projects and he can show hes the one to get it done.

 

[mind_the_gap]

Ford hasn't cancelled phase 2.. It will be extending North and provisions have been made to allow the OL to do so.. Let them close the North Section RFQ and they will then commence planning for the North Extension.

Considering the riding (I live in) that the extension would hit voted for him, I definitely expect him to announce an elevated extension to at least Sheppard/Don Mills, to reward his voters. Anything less would be an insult.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The Relief line went from University to the Danforth, that's it. The city had some preliminary thoughts about an eventual northern extension to Sheppard.. but they were just that, thoughts. There was no real project there at all. If given time it eventually would have turned into a project, but likely not one which would have been completed for decades.

That's somewhat revisionist - that's the city's portion of RL; Metrolinx was responsible for RL north from Pape to Eglinton. If there was one change that exceeded the original scheme, it was the extension westward past University to the Ex, which wasn't on the radar at all.

AoD

 

[felix123]

Ford hasn't cancelled phase 2.. It will be extending North and provisions have been made to allow the OL to do so.. Let them close the North Section RFQ and they will then commence planning for the North Extension.

The Liberals UPX is a failure, Crosstown is still not open lol, GO upgrades isn't what we are talking about right now. We are referring to Toronto related projects. Line 1 goes till Vaughn great but they should have been focusing on the Relief Line or other projects that will impact Toronto and ease congestion and back log on Line 1 not just put more fire into it. So in the Liberals reign they were all talk talk talk.

Ford go it done.

The University-Spadina side of Line 1 doesn't have the capacity issue that the Yonge side does.
PC's are extending Line 1 (Yonge) to Richmond Hill.
The OL and RL are a wash. RL was delayed by OL, nothing precluded it from being extended.
The OL sure as heck isn't open yet, meaningful GO "Expansion" is still years away, SSE is a depressing disaster with the RT about to shut down, streetcars are running slower than ever.
So what exactly have the PC's delivered so far?

Regardless, no provincial party in the past 50+ years has helped Toronto to have a workable rapid transit system in the core, and neither the OL nor RL make much of a difference for people who live here.
The fact that we're even discussing northern RT extensions to Sheppard when Parkdale won't have RT for years or decades is nuts.
Not to be partisan here, I am very happy about the western section of the OL, but amalgamation sure was a b!&*# to this city.